Isn't the S&W american a Henry centerfire?

[Four Eyes Henry]

I've read posts about converting henry's to other calibers to duplicate the original round, but never saw the 44 american mentioned.
I think they should be very close and a 44 spl or wcf could be sleeved i guess.
My interest is because I was banned from a match because the 44 wcf was not period correct (long story, nothing to do with SASS, NCOWS or whatever american organisation).
So, does anybody know about a conversion to this caliber or is it a NoNo for a reason.

Greetz from a Dutch Cowboy

[Joe Lansing]

    You can't duplicate the 44 Henry in cf except in performance. If you had a cf case dimentionally the same as the Henry rim fire, it wouldn't have the same powder capacity because of the base and wall thickness (this is assuming we are only talking about black powder). There is also the  question of heel seated bullets.
    I think, for all practical purposes, the 44 Henry cartridge can only be duplicated in spirit.

    AN IDEA!  Why doesn't some enterprising soul contract with the Chinese to produce a few million rounds of (rf)  44 Henry Flat?         

                                                          J.L.

                                                                                                 

[Fox Creek Kid]

...AN IDEA!  Why doesn't some enterprising soul contract with the Chinese to produce a few million rounds of (rf)  44 Henry Flat?         

                                                          J.L.

                                                                                                 

I sure will....as soon as you contract for a few thousand Henry rifles in this cal. from the Italians!! 

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

In 1891 Winchester put together from parts in stock 1,020 model 66s in .44 Henry centerfire.  The only change to the gun was to alter the firing pin to centerfire.  The external dimensions of the round were the same as the .44 Henry rf.  They were ordered by a dealer in Brazil.

You are correct in that the .44 American was created by same thought process by S&W at the request of the army.  (Some posters on this forum complain as the cf case has less capacity than the original. They feel that when comparing the external ballistics, that a larger case is required.)

There is a way of creating .44 American or .44 Henry cf, and that is to use .41 Magnum cases cut down to .44 Henry length.  Of course that leaves you the further task of acquiring or casting heel based bullets!  The nearest easily available and convenient option is the .44 Russian which is an evolution of the American round by making it wider to accept an inside lubed bullet.  The rifle will have to have the chamber sleeved and re-cut for the round you choose.  There are modified carriers available for the short rounds like .44 Russian or .45 Special.

Boy, those European reenactor groups are hard corps!  What would they accept less than an original Henry?

[Four Eyes Henry]

I would trade in my rifle  

My Richards conversion was in .44 colt, so I know about heel bullets.
With the right powder (4f is what I use in .45acp for example) I think you can get close.
http://www.youtube.com/user/foureyeshenry1#p/u/4/5DGgMXl8Fzs
But dimension-wise the american and the henry-cf are close, but where they interchangable?

PS regulations for our historic military rifle competition say that the cartridge should be period correct and therefore the henry is banned. I know there are loads and loads of (affordable)original rifles that I can use, but I was p****d off at the time and maybe I will start a project just to nag them.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

4 Eyes Henry said; "But dimension-wise the american and the henry-cf are close, but where they interchangable?"

Both were created by the same process;  By creating a new round simply by changing the location of the firing pin on firearms originally chambered for .44 Henry.  Therefore they are interchangeable even though their paths probably never crossed.  .44 American doesn't exist anymore for all intents and purposes so ignore it.  Call your new project a .44 Henry cf.  The headstamp will say.41 rem magnum anyway.

http://members.shaw.ca/cstein0/revolver.htm
http://www.oldammo.com/september04.htm

[Four Eyes Henry]

I'am still looking for funds ofcourse and in the time that will take I might decide to go another route.
Now I will shoot my (original) spencer rifle, they don't see to much of them.

Just read the "Henry rechambering" topic, the info was there all along, should have used search I guess.

Thank you for your time.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

This photo may be of some use.

Left to right, the cartridges in the photo are 44-40, 44 Special, 44 Russian, 44 S&W American, 44 Henry Rimfire (the copper cased one), 45 Schofield, and 45 Colt.



The shiny ones are my reloads, all the others are antiques. Both the 44 S&W American and the 44 Henry sport heeled bullets. As near as I can measure, the diameter of the driving band on the 44 S&W American is about .430, the case diameter is about .437. The bullet diameter at the driving band of the Henry round is about .440, the case is about .442. As you can see, the bullet lube is pretty well missing from both of these bullets. Case lengths for the two cartridges are similar, but the Henry case is a bit longer. The Henry rim is about .015 larger in diameter and about .020 thicker than the rim of the 44 S&W round. That makes sense, since the rimfire rim is folded over and has priming compound inside. The rim on the centerfire S&W round is solid. It doesn't have anything inside, so it doesn't have the extra thickness.

As far as I know, the 44 S&W American round was not chambered in a whole lot of guns. S&W did chamber some of their later revolvers for it, even after the introduction of the 44 Russian. But I am pretty sure no Henry Rifles were ever chambered for it.

[Christopher Carson]

Interesting pic.  Did the original .45 Schofield cases also have an extractor groove like that (apparently) modern case?  Or was it more like a .45 Colt head/rim?

-Chris

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Excellent question. Yes, the 45 Schofield round in the photo is one of my reloads using modern Starline brass. The 'extractor groove' is a relatively modern development in cartridge manufacture. Of course, rimless semi-auto ammunition such as 45 ACP and 30-06 needed a pronounced groove for an extractor claw to fit into. But early rimmed revolver ammo had no such need. As a matter of fact, part of the reason modern revolver ammo has a groove at the base is not for an extractor claw at all. It is a production shortcut.

Cartridge brass is formed by a cold forming process. Each case starts as a chunk of brass rod. It is then drawn to shape without any cutting, just pressure. At the base of the rim there will always be a very small radius. What we like to call the 'extractor groove' is really just a relief cut, to get rid of the radius.

Modern solid head cases have enough material at the base to allow for the relief cut. Old balloon head cases did not have enough material at the base to allow for such a cut. Here is a comparison of cross sections of a modern case and a balloon head case. The balloon head case is the one on the left. Even though these two examples are 44-40, the effect would have been the same with 45 Schofield.



You can see there was not enough material to make a relief cut, so old 45 Schofield rounds lacked it. Commercial production of 45 Schofield ceased around 1940, I have no idea if those rounds were balloon head or not, but the late 19th Century rounds would have been balloon head. The current popularity of cowboy shooting has revived interest in 45 Schofield, and today they are all made with solid heads.

Anyhoo, I don't have any old Schofield rounds in my collection, but I have never seen one with an 'extractor groove'. Here is a photo of one I found on the web. I have never seen any really old revolver cartridges with a groove around the base, since they were all balloon heads.

[Christopher Carson]

Thank ya, kindly, Mr. Johnson, appreciate the confirmation and additional pix!

Cheers, -Chris