Holster Design

[JD Alan]

Hey guys, I had a shootin buddy ask me a question about holster design that I didn't know the answer to, and I'm hoping someone can answer it.

He asked why so many holsters are "cut in" where the skirt starts to rise up from the body of the holster and bends around the top of the belt. I've included a picture of holster I just made that illustrates what I'm talking about. 

I made this one pretty quick to see how it fits in relation to what my friend wants. I'll show it to him in a short while. He seems to think (and maybe he's right) that by having the skirt as wide as possible rising up from the body it will help to guide the gun in when reholstering at speed, and boy is this guy fast!

Is it a matter of esthetics? Function? Just curious.

Thanks, JD
   

[Freedom]

I have found  in some cases, that if it is too wide your hand(fingures) will hit the back of the holster preventing you from getting a good "grab" on your grips. Some relief here also alows for the grips/holster to twist out and away from your body.

It is hard to tell without seeing the gun in the holster, but what you have pictured may be more relief than is nessasary to obtain clearance for the the grips during a draw.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

     Freedom is right, the reason for curving the front skirt inward is to get the leather away from the trigger and grip area of the gun, it makes a fast draw much easier, with the hand able to grasp the gun without any interference from the holster itself, although I doubt you would have seen very many holsters cut this way if any, in the eighteen hundreds, this style came about with the advent of the western movies, and was quickly adapted to the sport of quick draw.


          tEN wOLVES 

[Slowhand Bob]

I figure you are talking about the circular area cut out of the skirt, behind the trigger guard.  Since we really should not encourage the habit of inserting the trigger finger into the guard during the draw, I will say that it enhances the shelf area on which the trigger guard rests.  It could also help a fair bit with main seams that do not have thick fillers.  It somewhat resembles the holster from the Eastwood Italian Spaghetti Westerns to me.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

I figure you are talking about the circular area cut out of the skirt, behind the trigger guard.  Since we really should not encourage the habit of inserting the trigger finger into the guard during the draw, I will say that it enhances the shelf area on which the trigger guard rests.  It could also help a fair bit with main seams that do not have thick fillers.  It somewhat resembles the holster from the Eastwood Italian Spaghetti Westerns to me.

  Bob, that's exactly what this holster is, it's Hollywood all the way, very similar to my Alfonso Peneda holsters, and Arvo Ojawva/ Andy Anderson rigs, most of these style holsters were made with the front skirt steel lined over the belt which gave the holster stability, the cut out area made the grip and trigger guard area of the gun easy to grasp in the draw, your fingers don't touch the front skirt at all, this is a very user friendly style, and the one I used years ago in Quick Draw Comp.

              tEN wOLVES

[JD Alan]

Hey Robby, does it look familiar to you?

Thanks guys; I figured that was what I was going to hear, but I wanted to hear it from some pros. I was checking out the holsters from the Purdy Gear web page. My goodness that woman can make some holsters!

I notice that many of hers don't have that cut out around that back seam, so I knew it could be done both ways.

Thanks again, and if anyone wants to comment on this, or on degrees of cant that would be interesting   

[santee]

For CAS or Cowboy Fast Draw, looks like the cant should be fine. World Fast Draw is another story. Check out their cant:

[Johnny McCrae]

JD, I'd like to see this one when you get it finished. I think it has nice lines and looks good. It sure looks like you have your stitching down pat.

[Slowhand Bob]

JD, the original pattern that these come from does not contain that cut out.  Over the years there have been several variations of that pattern, its is my favorite modern competition style.  I have used it with the '60 Army, 73 SAA, OMRV and, to a lesser desireable fit, the Remingtons.  I use a thinner filler with the "60 army and a thicker one with the OMRV.  I have another one that is slightly downsized and will better fit the Navy, and Single Six size guns BUT these patterns just do not seam appropriate for the old cap and ball guns.  

Ten Wolves brings up a good point concerning the use of metal liners, I have made a few of these with metal running up over the belt loop and its a natural for this.  Since we are talking about a holster that is 10-12oz of leather it will still hold its shape pretty well without metal also, just wet form and shape with warm water.  The narrow waist also allows the holster to be more easily formed/twisted to position the butt outward.

Your holster looks pretty good to be calling it a quicky.

[JD Alan]

I'm still dealing with the curse of being in a hurry, even though KT keeps telling me to slow down! I stitched the main seam the way WC showed me; it took a long time and still looks pretty sloppy, but I'm getting there (Thanks again Wayne).

I use to do the out and back method of stitching, but for the past year I've been using the two needle one thread saddle stitch and it's working out fine.

The main reason for metal lining the skirt (as least for this shooter) is to be able to bend the holster out where he wants it. Ted Blocker is the local big name leather supplier in this area. Lots of guys use Blocker rigs, and lots of those rigs are metal lined, therefore it's become pretty popular.

I got this pattern from Slowhand Bob, whose been very generous to me with his time and patterns. I almost hate to identify it as one of his because I'm not sure I'm doing it any justice.

As far as the cross draw, my guy has decided that the 10 degree cant on the strong side is sufficent for the cross draw as well. I didn't drop the first one quite as far as he wanted, so a second on is in the works, one that I will attempt to metal line.   

Any suggestions on metal lining would be appreciated.

Thanks, I'm off to church. JD     

[Slowhand Bob]

JD, I finished the last of my projects in the shop last week and turned the water off and locked her down until after New Years.  I am in my final stages, I hope, of getting the last little tweaks to my version of a Wild Bunch rig and a competition based Slim Jim and these will be my first new years projects.  After I finish this we can work together on doing an all out version of the holster you just finished with a metal liner and go into some tricks with drop length and cant layout.  I think that because I am not a good carver/tooler I enjoy the design work more and particularly time saver construction techniques.  This is why I am also in awe of the beautiful tooling and artistic ability so many of you guys exhibit.

[JD Alan]

I appreciate that Robby; in the mean time I'm going mess around with various pieces of scrap leather and try sticking some metal in between some layers.

Any other metal lining comments are more than welcome.

[Slowhand Bob]

Holes helped me out a whole bunch, in two ways to.    I think that a couple or more well placed holes will allow extra leather to leather contact for offsetting the metal creep and delaminating while being formed???  If you have a spot the requires compound bending/forming a large hole centered at that spot helps me out greatly.  I primarily run into this at the spot where I transition between the rounded mouth of the holster and the bend back towards the belt loop.  My favorite metal weight is 26oz but can go 24oz with a bit more muscle.  I do have a hard time finding the lighter weight sheet metal in stainless and this is really hard forming.  I prefer my metal to be between the main leather and the liner but many put it under a third shaped layer at the top of the holster (actually adds a bit of a decorative look) in a contrasting color.

I would really like to see how others are doing this myself as I will be doing some of these when I get back.  I am thinking that the big outfits are actually molding their metal inserts but I can not come up with a poor mans method for doing this.

[JD Alan]

So if I understand you correctly Bob, you would punch a hole in the metal right where it's bent to go over the belt. I don't think I have anything that would punch holes in metal. The piece I am using to experiment with is 26 gauge. I think I read somewhere that people were using 20 gauge, but the closest I could find today was 26 from Home Depot.

Cutting out a strip of sheet metal turned out to be a little more challenging than I thought it would be, but not impossible. I've not done much with metal of any kind, but I guess there's always a first time.

Thanks again Robby.

Santee, that's quite a speed holster, and to the rest of you guys, who commented, thanks very much.

JD

[Slowhand Bob]

I like the 26ga, easier to work and I thought it was sufficiently strong enoughto hold its shape in this application(??) but was only able to get stainless in no lighter than 24ga.  The place I was talking about on the hole at the transition bend is not at the belt bend but below that at the mouth of the holster.  Check out Utube for some interesting tools/videos on sheet meatal cutting and HF sells several low cost tools that will work with the air compressor.  Tools I am currently using; screw type hole punch, air powered shears and nibblers.   Making a metal lining really slows me down but with a bit of time for experimenting perhaps I can speed up the process considerably. 

Info;  The screw style hole punches are very slow but I think they might be adaptable to a hydraulic press?  Its also possible that with the right type of bit the holes could be drilled much faster, but most are pretty large diameter???   Nibblers would be much quicker also, if used with some sort of template guide cutouts???  I know large professional leather shops are doing something different but I have never been invited in to see.  Perhaps my reputation as a pattern thief has preceded me.   

[JD Alan]

Wow, if you're a pattern thief, then I must be an enabler. I think I'm just going to give you a call Robby, 'cause this is getting a little confusing to me (I'm easily confused!)

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

   SB, if my memory stricks me well, I believe Alfonso after providing templets had all his metal inserts made by a sheet metal co., he then sewed them in between the front finished side and the liner, after doing that, he had a machine that would bend the holster to his specs. it was quit an operation and his holsters and comp. gun belts came out perfect. His son Omar and his Uncle most likely does it that way even today. and like you say if you have the right tools, what was hard is now easy.



                          tEN wOLVES 

[JD Alan]

That makes sense if you are making as many rigs as they are, and getting the kind of money that they are for them. I like their stuff; must be all the TV cowboy influence as a kid

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

  JD, The gun leather of the sixty's was as good as it gets, I know it's Hollywood, but the way these rigs fit and the quality of them was just outstanding, of course having some of your favorite Stars wearing them didn't hurt!!


         tEN wOLVES 

[Slowhand Bob]

Thanks Ten Wolves, sounds good to me also and remember, they were at one time supplying gun leather to the highest paid people in America and their prices could reflect such.  I am guessing that what JD and I are talking will be far less involved, with possibly just hand shaping the holster mouth and belt loop after sewing the metal inside the holster flat?  

JD, as I have said before, you are always welcome to call anytime.  So far I have been lucky but I think it is past time to obtain some kevlar fishing gloves for handling the sheet metal and you should think about doing the same thing.  I would not spend any more money on tooling until I get back and we see if what I have will adapt more readily?