Loading BP shotshells without a press?

[Mad_Dog]

Hey there!  I've got what I believe to be an Iver Johnson "top snap champion improved model 1901", circa 190x that I'd like to load up some shotshells for.  I'm just starting to look into CAS, and was thinking Great-Grand-Daddy's 12GA might make a good starting point while saving my pennies for pistols and a rifle.

However... it needs black powder loads, and I believe it needs 2.5" shells.  Seeing as that combo is only slightly more common than hen's teeth in these parts, I figure I'll need to load my own (or make friends with someone that loads shotshells).  I've seen a couple of posts mention loading shotshells by hand without a machine, and I'm wondering whats involved with that?  I'd like to play around a little with this shotgun before I make any significant investment in reloading equipment (though the lure of paper-hulled roll-crimped BP loads is strong).

-Mad Dog

[Howdy Doody]

To just try some shells out, why not trim to the 2 1/2, add powder, then overpowder wad, some shot and then an over shot card. Then use Elmers glue around the edges of the card to hold it all together?

I make blanks occasionally like that, using floral foam in place of shot.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

To just try some shells out, why not trim to the 2 1/2, add powder, then overpowder wad, some shot and then an over shot card. Then use Elmers glue around the edges of the card to hold it all together?

I make blanks occasionally like that, using floral foam in place of shot.

I've done that as well.  If you can get a box of Magtech brass shells, Try Midway, they work too but gathering wads, (Circle Fly), for these somewhat oversized (internally) require 11 gauge wads.  Cutting off almost any good plastic case as Howdy says works too.  Black powder takes more space so wads will be different.  I use about 60 - 70 grains of GOEX FFg, a 1 1/4 oz plastic wad designed for field loads, and an overshot card punched from almost any cereal box with a 3/4 " punch.  I use waxed card milk containers  for my O/S card as it leaves the load with a waterproof top.  As Howdy says, Elmers glue will hold the O/S card.

If you buy commercial wads, you will need three;  1; Over Powder (O/P) 2; Cushion wad, 1/2 inch thick will be about right.  3; Over Shot (O/S)  12 gauge for paper or plastic, and 11 gauge for brass Magtechs.

If you don't have a powder measure, a fired .30-06 case holds just under 60 grains of GOEX FFg.  A short belted mag case cut off at the shoulder holds 70 gr. and a .338 Win Mag case holds 80, as does a .300 Win mag case cut at the shoulder. If you need to measure shot, a measure that holds 70 grains of powder will hold 1 oz of shot.  An 80 gr measure holds about 1 1/8 oz of shot.

Depriming can be done with almost any punch, with a large nut underneath to allow room for the primer to drop.  Repriming can be done using about a 4 inch piece of copper pipe as a hollow punch.  Sit the case over the new primer on a firm surface.  I use a small mild steel plate, but good hardwood works and might make you feel more comfortable.  Tap the case down over the primer with a plastic mallet until it is seated.

[Dick Dastardly]

Till I decided to make a 10ga part of my SASS gun lineup, I loaded them, one each, by hand.  I used a MEC Supersizer with a 10ga collet to grip 'em and removed the primers with a punch.  I installed primers with a hollow tube and a wood block with a recess cut out by a forsner bit.  Powder was dropped with LEE dippers and overshot and fiber wads were rammed in place by a wood dowel.  Closure was by a roll crimp tool via my bench top drill press.

The resulting ammo shot great.  Since then I've bought an original Winchester 87 10ga (yes, it's actually NOT a 1901).  I enjoy shooting this great old scattergun at SASS matches.  It's slow, but then consider the style points. . .

DD-DLoW

[JimBob]

Look around on e-bay or one of the auction sites for one of the Lee hand loaders for shotgun shells.Also if you go to e-bay and go to the Sporting Goods section and do a search for "vintage reloading tools" there's pictures of all kinds of old shotshell reloading tools.Paper 12 guage hulls are available from Grafs Reloading supply.

Old time shotshell reloading sets were pretty simple affairs.They consisted of a powder and shot dipper,a wood base on which to set the shell to punch out the primer,a combination primer punch which reversed to use as a punch to push the wads in the shell,a plier type priming tool,and a powder and shot funnel.There were several types of crimping tools available for putting on roll crimps.Much of this can be fabricated or homemade,it's not rocket science by any means to do.Vintage tools don't normally sell for a lot so I acumulated most of my sets I put together by buying vintage stuff.The biggest thing I found doing it the old time way was getting good wad pressure so the rounds had good ignition and velocity.

[Wolfgang]

Whut I do . . . http://www.drburkholter.com/cf14.html   

[Montana Slim]

All the above is good advice. I've relaoded a goodly number of 12 ga and .410's, both BP & smokeless with improvised and home-made tools. It wern't fast, or pretty, but the shells knocked down a lot of critters.

Regards,
Slim

[Uriah]

A MEC 600 Jr loader does make wad insertion easier. And used ones go pretty cheap.

I load both Brass and Federal paper. I like the brass as it doesn't need resizing. But the roll crimp paper has more style points IMO, The damascus doubles I have all have 2.5" chambers.

Federal Paper: Once fired hulls. I use a razor box cutter to cut off the old crimp. They cut easiest at the old crimp line and this puts them at 2.5". A band saw would sure be easier in this. If you buy once fired paper hulls you better check gun fit before loading them. They may need resizing.

Resize and deprime on Mec 600. Seat new primer. If no press, a primer could be seated using a flat hard surface and a large dowel pressed into shell and push down on primer. I would avoid hammers.

I pour 70 gr FFg Elephant using an old Hollywood measure. A dipper for powder and shot would work fine.

Mec 600. Seat over powder wad, press down, seat cushion wad, press down. Wad guide on press makes this easy. By hand is not too bad.

Add 1 oz shot using Mec 600 or a dipper. Place over shot wad.

I roll crimp using a duck boat roll crimpoer. These are antiques and can be had for about $15 at a gun show. A new drill mounted version from Ballistics Co. Inc is probably easier though.

[Bryan Austin]

Whut I do . . . http://www.drburkholter.com/cf14.html   

[rickk]

Before I got fancier equipment I used a Lee Load-All to load 12 G BP loads. It is a very simple loader, but simple is exactly what you need for BP.

It is no loinger made, but they show up on Ebay. When they were new they sold for under $20 I believe, so a used one should not be setting you back too much.

The only other accessory that is nice to have is a roll crimper. You can also seal a wad in place with glue and no crimp, but the roll crimper is cleaner and quicker.

Trim 2-3/4" hulls to 2-1/2 for your Iver Johnson. Ballistic Products makes a nice tool to do this with minimal fuss. I have also done it with a drill press and a really big wood bit, using a Mec Supersizer to hold the hulls. Ballistic Products now makes a hull vice that can do the same thing for less $$. If course, you can simply stick a wooden down inside the empty hull and then trim the hull with a razor knife.

[Paladin UK]

Fer Rickk......

No real difference between the original and the current model `Load All`

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1291751543.799=/html/catalog/loadall.html

Paladin (what lurvs Black Powder ) UK

[Wills Point Pete]

Put me in the camp for the Mag Tech brass shells. The only piece of loading equipment you'll want is one of those Lee Adjustable Dippers. While you can use those cut off rifle shell cases, the dipper is quicker and easier.I used a long, skinny nail with the point filed off to decap. A four or six inch socket wrench extension with a 7/16 socket to tap the brass hull on to the new case, sit the primer on a flat piece of iron or steel, and tap the brass hull down on it. Then follow the above directions. I mostly use Duco cement to seal the overshot wad although a lot of other kinds of glue work as well.

[rickk]

I need to correct myself a bit.

What I was using wasn't a "Load-All", but a "Load-All Jr".  It has no powder or shot dispenser.

[Mad_Dog]

Sounds like with a roll crimper, a stick, and a measure of some sort I'll be good to go!  You guys have got me watching ebay for a vintage roll-crimper now .  At first I was thinking just get a modern one, but the idea of hand-cranking roll-crimps on antique style shotshells, with an antique crimper, for an antique gun is somehow appealing .

[rickk]

I've never used one of those old hand cranked roll crimpers, but they were make when hulls were paper. If you use paper they will be fine. If you try them on plastic, they won't work well. I have a drill press roll crimper setup (Ballistic Products sells the tool). It works by creating heat from friction and it pretty much melts the roll in place. I don't know if you could do that with a hand operated one.

Ballistic Products carries paper hulls most of the time.

Like Sir Charles says though, the absolutely easiest one to load tool-less are the Magtech brass hulls.  They really look pretty too, and last a long time.

Tools can be made out of wooden dowels. The decapping pin has to be centered fairly well to hit the primer. The rest of the loading operations can easily be done with a loose to moderately snug wooden dowel.

I now have fancier stuff for decapping the Magtech hulls (RCBS 12 G cowboy dies in a Lee Cast O Press), but I also reload for 37mm. 37 mm Hulls are the same darn thing as 12 gauge, except much bigger. All my tools are home made. Depriming is done with a snug fitting wooden dowel (turned on a lathe to fit properly) with a hardened pin epoxied into a hole that was drilled into the end of it. The hull is put into a hole in a wooden block with a smaller hole drilled under where the the primer sits. A smack with a plastic mallet and out the primer comes. I use a 10" C clamp held vertically in a bench vice, along with a wooden dowel, to press the new primer in.

Even with the 12 G Magtech brass hull, once the new primer is in there, the powder, wads and shot are all put in place with wooden dowels. There is really no better way to do it. You could try doing it on a MEC, but the wad lube will wind up all over the pllace in short order. Also, the MEC powder dispenser is far from proper for Black Powder use.

The one thing I also do to the Brass Hulls that requires a fancy die is to put a slight taper on the brass hull after the overshot wad is in place. It makes the hull load easier into the chamber if you are a rush. To do that, I use the taper crimp portion of a now obsolete RCBS 12 G die set (not the cowboy version, but the old set made for 12 G plastic hulls). It's not mandatory, just cool. I use the same die to put a taper on regular smokeless plastic hulls that I load on my Mec 600 jr as well.

It ain't rocket science, just another skill that needs to be fumbled though the first few times to be comfortable with.

[Mad_Dog]

I've got a stupid question for someone who has used a hand-crank roll crimper... what keeps everything in place while the shotshell is sideways, before its crimped?  Is the overshot card just a tight friction fit?

-Mad Dog

[rickk]

I've never used a hand crimper myself, but I assume it can be positioned mouth-up rather than sideways.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I googled "roll crimper" and found a good image.  I couldn't make it copy here, but here is the link.  Scroll down to an article on roll crimping;

http://www.brimstonepistoleros.com/gazette/jun06.html

The lever has a stirrup that presses on the base of the case.  That does two things;
1.  Keeps the case from rotating.
2.  Feeds the case into the crimp head.

Here is a related discussion from 2008;

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,20203.0.html

Note my JAM-ROLL as an alternative to roll crimping.