Cap'n Ball Capping Questions

[Fox Creek Kid]

...I once shot a steel challenge match with a Thames Arms 5 shot .38 S&W. That peeved more than a few shooters when I came in second place...

This is just really too much.    But is is rich!!  

[Claypipe]

Claypipe,
I find myself at a loss for a response.   I am just a simple pistolero, with your bona fides this is obviously a job for Fiddler.  I have never engaged in a debate or even a conversation with a Gonnemeister, fortunately Fiddler always has an answer and sees things that the rest of us can't see.

Regards,
Mako (WWBD)

My credentials as a gonnemeister were come by the following. First, being able to create, from scratch, two basic forms of early blackpowder, serpentine and corned, Follow that with the construction of the basic three forms of handgonnes, cast, hammerwelded and machine turned. I am a self educated individual. And have live a interesting wandering life of existence.

CP

[Claypipe]

This is just really too much.    But is is rich!!  

The .38 S&W is a much under rated round. Its birth began with Colt's 1851 so called Navy pistol. The same iron that Wild Bill Hickok carried. The same gun that laid low so many a soldier on the battlefields of the American Civl War. Then it evolved into the .38 rimfire cartridge, and later branched out into the .38 S&W, .38 Short Colt and .38 Long Colt. Many a Thames went west, along with Smith and Wesson's, Iver Johnson's, and the list goes on for the multitude of revolvers chambered for this much maligned round.

Your amusement was pretty much the reaction I got when I walked up to the firing line. Imagine the pressure on the gents shooting against me, especilly after the first shooter when down. To be out shot by some kilroy with a peashooter. Still, their expensive .38 supers, 9mm's and .45's fell by the wayside. I never take competition seriously. I just love to shoot. Winning is the goal of someone who has something to prove. I just want to have fun.

Here's another part of my life that may amuse you. Back in the day, I was a troubleshooter for a well known guard agency, who's founding dates back to the old west. The training officer was the same one from the Louisiana State Police Academy. He had the nickname of Captain Can Do. Now, he didn't much care for the branch manager's righthand man. Who, was also my best friend and an ex-federal marshall. For my certification, he decided it would be fun to have me shoot 30 rounds instinctive, no aiming. I did 280 out of 300. Mind you at that time I was shooting about a thousand rounds aweek, honing my skills and playing steel challenge.

Most of my life sounds like bovine fecal matter to those who weren't there. And it matters little to me what other people think. I'm not here to impress anyone. I just live my life to suit me. But, hey, its easy to be rude when you have a keyboard fior a mask.

CP

[pistol1911]

I have shot NRA matches for 40 years.The only pressure I felt was self imposed.Clay Pipe I believe you are Elmer Keith incarnated.

[Mako]

...Your amusement was pretty much the reaction I got when I walked up to the firing line. Imagine the pressure on the gents shooting against me, especilly after the first shooter when down. To be out shot by some kilroy with a peashooter. Still, their expensive .38 supers, 9mm's and .45's fell by the wayside. I never take competition seriously. I just love to shoot. Winning is the goal of someone who has something to prove. I just want to have fun...

...Most of my life sounds like bovine fecal matter to those who weren't there. And it matters little to me what other people think. I'm not here to impress anyone. I just live my life to suit me. But, hey, its easy to be rude when you have a keyboard fior a mask.
CP

Claypipe,
I must say I am in awe, that's about all I can say.  I have even attended the Steel Challenge in Piru and know firsthand how difficult of an accomplishment this is.   It appears I may have hitched my wagon to the wrong shooting star on this board.

Outer Limits with the 35 yard plates was considered the make or break stage, but most shooters were sweating the small plates on 5 To Go.  Either would be beyond my capabilities with a pocket pistol at stage winning times.  I'm still in awe and my admiration grows that you could hit 145 targets without a miss from a Thames revolver.  I'm assuming that is the case because you beat the boys with the high cap magazines and revolvers with 6 to 8 round cylinders.  My hat is off to you, I'm still amazed the guys with the $3,000 electronic sighted race guns fell prey to your pocket pistol.  You are in fact one "Steely Eyed Pistolero!"

I do have one question, how did you get them to wave the minimum .38 spl requirement?  They have denied shooters with .32 SW PPC revolvers or .32 SW ISSF target pistols in the past.  They allow 9mm for semi-autos or .38spl for revolvers, .38 S&W wouldn't normally pass the requirement. 

Regards,
Mako (WWBD)

[Blackpowder Burn]

This is better than watching Dennis Miller on O'Reilly!!   

[Claypipe]

Claypipe,
I must say I am in awe, that's about all I can say.  I have even attended the Steel Challenge in Piru and know firsthand how difficult of an accomplishment this is.   It appears I may have hitched my wagon to the wrong shooting star on this board.

Outer Limits with the 35 yard plates was considered the make or break stage, but most shooters were sweating the small plates on 5 To Go.  Either would be beyond my capabilities with a pocket pistol at stage winning times.  I'm still in awe and my admiration grows that you could hit 145 targets without a miss from a Thames revolver.  I'm assuming that is the case because you beat the boys with the high cap magazines and revolvers with 6 to 8 round cylinders.  My hat is off to you, I'm still amazed the guys with the $3,000 electronic sighted race guns fell prey to your pocket pistol.  You are in fact one "Steely Eyed Pistolero!"

I do have one question, how did you get them to wave the minimum .38 spl requirement?  They have denied shooters with .32 SW PPC revolvers or .32 SW ISSF target pistols in the past.  They allow 9mm for semi-autos or .38spl for revolvers, .38 S&W wouldn't normally pass the requirement. 

Regards,
Mako (WWBD)

This occured in the early days of steel challenge matches, early 80's I think. The limitation was .38 caliber, did not specify special or super. And long before the cheater guns, you mentioned, became available. Laser sights hadn't even hit the mass market yet. The indoor range at which these meets took place had the plates at fifty feet. Those days you had 5 plates and your opponent had five plates. First five down won. I had HK speed loaders that fit both my Thames and my H&R. My buddy had a L frame 686 snubbie with an aimpoint and that was the hottest thing on the range at the time. Seen a few under loaded .38 supers bounce back to the firing line. The trick with a .38 S&W is to catch the plate at the top 2 inches. Any lower than that and the plate just falls back into place. And since it was a local event, I never shot more than fifty plates a night. And a high cap magazine would have been the S&W 459 with its 14 round mag and one in the tube. I watched one ole boy blow through his mag, hitting only two plates.

When I got more serious about those matches, I bought a Ruger Redhawk with a five inch barrel. Loading my own ammo, I used 5.9 grains of Unique behind a 235 grain swc, with a magnum pistol primer. Basically, a .44 special load in a .44 magnum case. Got ask to leave after one set of plates. Seems these rounds were leaving craters in the plates. Range Master pulled 3 of my bullets to check the load. Said my load was within reason, but they couldn't afford to be replacing plates. Thinking back on it, I figured what was happening with these was flash over, sometimes referred to as detonation, this would have ripped apart a lesser gun than a Ruger Redhawk. Should have seen the shooter next to me jump, everytime my gun went off.

Does that satisfy your challenge? I must say I am enjoying this conversation more and more.

[Claypipe]

I have shot NRA matches for 40 years.The only pressure I felt was self imposed.Clay Pipe I believe you are Elmer Keith incarnated.

And that can be the toughest pressure of all. We can be our own worst critics. That's why people choke, when push comes to shove.

And Please don't blasphem.

CP

[Mako]

Claypipe,
I shall attempt to answer the pertinent points of your post in the order you wrote them in.

This occured in the early days of steel challenge matches, early 80's I think.

I was at the Steel Challenges in the early 1980s I didn't make the first, but I made 4 following that.  I must know you because there were barely 100 shooters in '82 and it didn't reach 200 until at least '85.
 

The limitation was .38 caliber, did not specify special or super.

After the match in 1982 the rulings were made about the .32 S&Ws I wrote about in the post above.  After the laser sight which I will write about below (first one ever used in a world match) everyone wanted to know what the rules were.  It was declared in 1982 for the 1983 match and following that the minimum calibers were 9mm for autos and .38 spl. for revolvers.  Up to that point no one had ever shot anything smaller.

And long before the cheater guns, you mentioned, became available.

In 1983 Wassom and McCormick both had Devel Gammons at the match, I'm curious...You don't think Charlie Kelsey's Gammons were what you describe as a "cheater gun?"  If you could look up "race gun" in the dictionary there would be a picture of one there.  But since you were at the Steel Challenge you must already know what they look like.

Laser sights hadn't even hit the mass market yet.

1982 was also the year we saw the first laser sight it was about 18" long about 4" tall and 3" wide.  He had to wear goggles to make out the laser spot.  I can't remember when the first optical sight was used but it was early and it was a Burris 1X pistol scope with a big dot reticle.  They had been used the year before at the Bianchi match.

The indoor range at which these meets took place had the plates at fifty feet. Those days you had 5 plates and your opponent had five plates. First five down won. I had HK speed loaders that fit both my Thames and my H&R...

The Steel Challenge has always been outdoors in Piru.  There have never been falling plates at a Steel Challenge, they have always been fixed steel.  The ranges were not fifty feet, and the course of fire has remained almost unchanged.

Does that satisfy your challenge? I must say I am enjoying this conversation more and more.

Actually your response raises more questions than it answers questions.  There wasn't  a "Steel Challenge Shooting Association" until the '90s, there was just the Steel Challenge.  There weren't any local, state or regional matches, everyone had to practice on their own unless they had some training partners to shoot with.    It was always a go for broke all out speed contest that required precision.  It was the first place we saw what we now commonly call "race guns" or in IPSC/USPSA parlance "Unlimited or Open Class" pistols.  There weren't single action, .22LR, revolver, service or any other classes in the early 80's.

Confused,
Mako (WWBD)

[Pettifogger]

Where are my rubber boots?

[Claypipe]

Where are my rubber boots?

On the back porch? That's where I keep mine.

CP

[Claypipe]

Claypipe,
I shall attempt to answer the pertinent points of your post in the order you wrote them in.

And I will do so in kind.

I was at the Steel Challenges in the early 1980s I didn't make the first, but I made 4 following that.  I must know you because there were barely 100 shooters in '82 and it didn't reach 200 until at least '85.

Were you at the ones shot at the indoor range in St.Bernard Parish, Louisiana? Steel challenge matches were shot on the second Wednesday night of the month as I recall. Then you would remember me as the guy who kept showing up with odd ball guns. Walther p-38, Polish ViS and others. Maybe you were the guy who commented we couldn't hit the broadside of a barn, looking at our targets. Then suddenly decided that he had somewhere else to be, when he realized that we were shooting out the numbers at twenty five feet. Aim small, miss small.

After the match in 1982 the rulings were made about the .32 S&Ws I wrote about in the post above.  After the laser sight which I will write about below (first one ever used in a world match) everyone wanted to know what the rules were.  It was declared in 1982 for the 1983 match and following that the minimum calibers were 9mm for autos and .38 spl. for revolvers.  Up to that point no one had ever shot anything smaller.

The rule book that the range master was using only specified .38 caliber or better. Don't know where it came from. Didn't care at the time. I was too busy enjoying the game.

In 1983 Wassom and McCormick both had Devel Gammons at the match, I'm curious...You don't think Charlie Kelsey's Gammons were what you describe as a "cheater gun?"  If you could look up "race gun" in the dictionary there would be a picture of one there.  But since you were at the Steel Challenge you must already know what they look like.

I believe you are talking about the semi-auto pistols with the weighted and sometimes ported barrel bushings. Also, there were the super heavy barreled revolvers. Built to compensate for the shooter's inability to deal with recoil and muzzle rise. Before long, the guns looked more like Buck Rogers rayguns than shooting iron. Guns that would never see street carry, with prices ill afforded by a working man.

1982 was also the year we saw the first laser sight it was about 18" long about 4" tall and 3" wide.  He had to wear goggles to make out the laser spot.  I can't remember when the first optical sight was used but it was early and it was a Burris 1X pistol scope with a big dot reticle.  They had been used the year before at the Bianchi match.

Never had much use for either laser or optic sights on a handgun. That's just me.

The Steel Challenge has always been outdoors in Piru.  There have never been falling plates at a Steel Challenge, they have always been fixed steel.  The ranges were not fifty feet, and the course of fire has remained almost unchained.

You do realize that there is a world outside Piru? All I know is that I shot matches advertised as "Steel Challenge" in the early 1980's at an indoor range in St. Bernard Parish, Louisiana.

Actually your response raises more questions than it answers questions.  There wasn't  a "Steel Challenge Shooting Association" until the '90s, there was just the Steel Challenge.  There weren't any local, state or regional matches, everyone had to practice on their own unless they had some training partners to shoot with. It was always a go for broke all out speed contest that required precision.  It was the first place we saw what we now commonly call "race guns" or in IPSC/USPSA parlance "Unlimited Class" pistols.  There weren't single action, .22LR, revolver, service or any other classes in the early 80's.

Never said anything about "Steel Challenge Shooting Association." What did I say and I will repeat it: All I know is that I shot matches advertised as "Steel Challenge" in the early 1980's in St. Bernard Parish, Louisiana. And just because you can't bring yourself to understand that, doesn't mean that its not true. Precision shooting? humph! Cut a card in half sideways at 25 feet, or pop a Necco wafer at 50 feet, then you have precision shooting.

With the amount of money involved in the game, it is easy to understand why it became a game of the rich and shameless. Back in the eighties, at the Bianchi Cup, 25th place paid something like $5,000 in money and prizes. This was a sport that could have rekindled American interest in shooting sports. But, was squashed by the introduction of outrageously priced custom guns equipped with shameless skill compensators to steal the show.

Confused,
Mako (WWBD)

At least we agree on that.

CP

[Mako]

Where are my rubber boots?

Pettifogger,
Now let's be charitable, I've been doing some deep thinking on this and I'm sure there is a simple explanation.  Years of shooting at extreme levels can cause something as simple as an MTBI or even more acute intra-axial hematomas or extra-axial hemorrhages.  All will have a differing pathophysiological effect on the state of upper cognitive and memory functions.

Furthermore, the years pursuing the art of creating not only corned,  but serpentine Black Powder must have led to some nasty accidents.  Claypipe may not even remember them.  He may be suffering from post-concussive syndrome which often doesn't manifest itself for years.

With concussive trauma,  amnesia is more likely to be anterograde.  This is the inability to create and save new memories. But, on the other hand  it could be retrograde,  which is usually, but not always a loss of memories that were formed before the injury.  Sometimes it manifests itself in mixing memories and experiences.  This is probably the best explanation for mixing the courses of fire and target types between Bianchi style shoots and the Steel Challenge that Claypipe has memories of.

We should all be thankful though, published mortality rates for intraparenchymal bleeding  is over 40%. All of the acute forms of brain trauma usually have some level of this.  C.P. could have fallen into that group and we wouldn't be benefitting from his experience now.

We should be thankful for small favors...

Regards,
Mako (WWBD)

[Claypipe]

Pettifogger,
Now let's be charitable, I've been doing some deep thinking on this and I'm sure there is a simple explanation.  Years of shooting at extreme levels can cause something as simple as an MTBI or even more acute intra-axial hematomas or extra-axial hemorrhages.  All will have a differing pathophysiological affect on the state of upper cognitive and memory functions.

Furthermore, the years pursuing the art of creating not only corned,  but serpentine Black Powder must have led to some nasty accidents.  Claypipe may not even remember them.  He may be suffering from post-concussive syndrome which often doesn't manifest itself for years.

With concussive trauma,  amnesia is more likely to be anterograde.  This is the inability to create and save new memories. But, on the other hand  it could be retrograde,  which is usually, but not always a loss of memories that were formed before the injury.  Sometimes it manifests itself in mixing memories and experiences.  This is probably the best explanation for mixing the courses of fire and target types between Bianchi style shoots and the Steel Challenge that Claypipe has memories of.

We should all be thankful though, published mortality rates for intraparenchymal bleeding  is over 40%. All of the acute forms of brain trauma usually have some level of this.  C.P. could have fallen into that group and we wouldn't be benefitting from his experience now.

We should be thankful for small favors...

Regards,
Mako (WWBD)

Or maybe, just maybe, the world is bigger than the little patch of earth you stand on???

[Noz]

Since this has turned into a pissing match rather than an intelligent dialog maybe it's time for Cutts to step in.

[Mako]

Since this has turned into a pissing match rather than an intelligent dialog maybe it's time for Cutts to step in.

Noz,
You are quite correct.  I apologize sir.  I shall withdraw.

Your friend,
Mako  (WWBD)

[kflach]

Dang, I may have gotten here a bit late. I've got a question about this statement from Mako"

"One last thing to consider... Remington #10 caps feed better in a Cash capper.  Sometimes the #11s will get wedged or even get turned sideways. The Cash capper tray was designed to accommodate the taller #10 (.175") caps so there is an additional .03" of clearance when the #11s are used."

I've been having problems because Remington #10s *won't* fit into my Cash cappers.  Some of them are just plain too tall and get wedged into the capper. At the NCOWS Regional Match earlier this year I tried some 10s (again) and what I did was one evening while back at the hotel I went through a tin of the 10s, placing each one into my capper to see if it worked. Out of the 100 I tried, I found a little over 20 that smoothly slid up and down the capper without getting wedged.

The #11s sometimes turn sideways when I'm loading the capper, but I can turn those upright easily. I was going to ask if anyone had any suggestions on how to increase the height of the inside of the capper (give it more vertical clearance) so I could use 10s.

For the record, I'm talking about the straight capper that holds 20 caps (and fits the Remington 1858 nipples).

[Montana Slim]

At last count, I have 4 cappers. I've modified a couple to work exclusively with one type of cap for positive feeding & retention of caps. To make one larger as you desire, I'd make a small steel shape of the opening size (interior) desired....then, disassemble the capper to push it through & re-form the interior. You'll need to tap on the outside with a small hammer as you work it though.

Regards,
Hotgun

[Claypipe]

Since this has turned into a pissing match rather than an intelligent dialog maybe it's time for Cutts to step in.

Sorry good sir, and my sincere apologies to all here. It was not my intent to disrupt this dialogue, only to contribute to the discourse. But, I have a bad habit of standing my ground when challenged.

[Claypipe]

At last count, I have 4 cappers. I've modified a couple to work exclusively with one type of cap for positive feeding & retention of caps. To make one larger as you desire, I'd make a small steel shape of the opening size (interior) desired....then, disassemble the capper to push it through & re-form the interior. You'll need to tap on the outside with a small hammer as you work it though.

Regards,
Hotgun

This is pretty much what I would do, with the exception that I would apply some heat to the metal I was reforming. This can be done by leaving the empty capper out in the hot mid-day sun.

CP