Cap'n Ball Capping Questions

[Fox Creek Kid]

...So, if what you say is true (and I'm not so sure) why then do the Treso nipples seem to blow apart the When the standard nipples don't?...

I've used Tresos for years and have never had nor heard of one ''blowing apart'' until now.    How many grains of Bullseye are you loading?

[Claypipe]

why then do the Treso nipples seem to blow apart the When the standard nipples don't? Hummmmm....... This may require that you go out and shoot a gun.

Fully realizing that I am stepping into a crossfire. I have to say:

1.] I have never heard of a nipple blowing apart.

2.] And the answer may be as simple as the hammer over traveling or the nipple selected have cones too long for the gun they are being used in. As Tresco nipples are made from magnesium bronze, they will have a somewhat brittle crystaline structure. So, if the hammer is overtraveling, or the cone is too long, its only a short matter of time before the nipple will fail due to metal fatigue.

I stand by my method of fitting nipples to my caps. It works for me.

Please resume your normally scheduled hostilities


CP

[Mako]

Claypipe,
While I am not the expert Bruce is, I will attempt to answer while he is out shooting.

First of all it is not MAGNESIUM Bronze, It is a high strength alloy called Manganese Bronze.  Manganese and Magnesium are two entirely different elements.

Secondly, many bronze alloys are actually stronger than iron, mild or medium steels. The C86300 alloy used in the Treso cones is one such example. Below is a table showing four important mechanical properties for a percussion cone and I have included the alloy Treso uses as well as a medium carbon steel and a lower carbon steel in their hot rolled state.

Property	Manganese Bronze	SAE 1045	SAE 1020
Hardness (Brinell)	225	163	126
Tensile Strength(psi)	110,000	81,900	54,000
Yield Strength(psi)	62,000	45,000	29,900
Elongation (% 2in)	18%	16%	24%

This particular AMPCO Manganese Bronze alloy was chosen because it offers relatively high strength, toughness and corrosion resistance. Impact from a hammer blow is not sufficient to destroy either of the steel alloys, I must defer to our resident expert Bruce on his vast experience with the Treso alloy.

Have a great day,
Mako

Added
My metallurgist tells me he thinks it may be Aluminum Bronze.  We buy material from AMPCO and he says he had a conversation once with one of the staff and they mentioned they sell it for use as a percussion cone.  Well, now I have a mystery on my hands...But, the good news for you Claypipe is that the AMPCO Aluminum Bronze alloys they would possibly use have numbers similar to the Manganese in the chart above, so it's still stronger than the steels used in Italian clones.  I may have to call them... This is getting fun.

[Jeremiah]

Deadeye,

You can also try http://www.houseofmuskets.com/.  They manufacture Treso parts and do retail sales.  They don't have a web store though so you are looking at downloading a catalog and calling.  I only post this because I live in Pagosa Springs and have had good luck with them on other things, they are also have a retail gun store.  I have not actually used or purchased any Treso parts.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Well, I've been reading, measurin' and figgerin' about all the great information y'all done offered.  It seems these recent production Uberti Dragoons are in pretty dang good form overall.  I've determined:

• The hammer is not hitting the Treso nipples, so fit is good
• The chamber mouths are 0.449" and the barrel groove diameter is about 0.448". Barrel groove diameter is a bit of a guess, since this is 7 groove rifling and I'm measuring across a groove on one side and a land on the other.  The actual dimension across the groove and land is 0.445".  At any rate, it seems the balls should be of proper diameter entering the barrel to fully seal the bore.

I have a buddy with a very complete machine shop (milling machine, lathe, drill press, etc.) and we are going to do the modifications suggested by Utah in his article.  The exception being that we'll use a mill instead of a dremel tool.  That should make a very neat modification.  The final mod I think I'll make will be to slightly widen the opening in the frame under the loading lever so I can use a Big Lube DD/ROA/PUK II bullet.  There is more than sufficient height, just need the opening slightly wider.

Watch of Frontiersman category!

[Claypipe]

First of all it is not MAGNESIUM Bronze, It is a high strength alloy called Manganese Bronze.  Manganese and Magnesium are two entirely different elements.

This particular AMPCO Manganese Bronze alloy was chosen because it offers relatively high strength, toughness and corrosion resistance. Impact from a hammer blow is not sufficient to destroy either of the steel alloys, I must defer to our resident expert Bruce on his vast experience with the Treso alloy.

My pardon, I meant to type manganese. But I stand by my experience with said metals, both manganese bronze and magnesium bronze suffering fatigue failure due to sharp impacts. I am a certified cannoneer, as well as a Gonnemeister, a rare animal I know, but one has to know what metals are proper in casting a tube.

Added
News Flash! My metallurgist tells me he thinks it may be Aluminum Bronze.  We buy material from AMPCO and he says he had a conversation once with one of the staff and they mentioned they sell it for use as a percussion cone.  Well, now I have a mystery on my hands...But, the good news for you Claypipe is that the AMPCO Aluminum Bronze alloys they would possibly use have numbers similar to the Manganese in the chart above, so it's still stronger than the steels used in Italian clones.  I may have to call them... This is getting fun.

Aluminium bronze, another cyrstaline structured metal. While it may be stronger on paper, the test you are quoting are stress tests, not impact. Big difference in dynamics. With weight, glass will bend, then break. With impact it shatters. The harder a metal, the more susceptible it is to shatter with impact.

[Mako]

...
Aluminium bronze, another cyrstaline structured metal. While it may be stronger on paper, the test you are quoting are stress tests, not impact....

Claypipe,
All metal has a crystalline structure, except for a few exotic alloys with amorphous structures.  And those aren't normal alloys, they are very exotic.  For the ones we are talking about they have a crystalline structure.  Steel and Iron have crystalline stuctures


As far as impact resistance goes I can dig up the Charpy impact tests for the materials if you like.

The reason I listed four properties instead of just Tensile and Yield strengths is that you can derive a relative toughness between the compared materials if you look at all four.  The percent elongation is your ductility indicator.  If you have equivalent or higher hardness, tensile, yield and then you have a higher elongation percentage then your material is tougher.

Regards,
Mako

[Mako]

Claypipe,
I must apologize,  I have overstepped my expertise.  I was trying to fill the considerable shoes of our resident expert Fiddler Green (Bruce).   I was worried that since he was out shooting board members would mistake that for inattention instead of steeling himself for the next round of advice.

As I said earlier I can only speak for the common cones, I'm afraid only someone with Bruce's experience could ever hope to explain the nuances of the Treso cones.  He even has a Pietta '60 with 3 factory cones and 3 Treso cones, which is a sure sign of dedication to research.

Have a great evening,
Mako

P.S. And I didn't mean he was out shooting board members, I should have put a comma there.  He shoots a lot.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Mako,

Bless your soul.  I do love your turn of phrase.

I only hope that Bruce realizes how thoroughly he's been whipped while you maintain true civility! 

[Fox Creek Kid]

...It seems these recent production Uberti Dragoons are in pretty dang good form overall.  I've determined:

• The hammer is not hitting the Treso nipples, so fit is good...

This is a perpetuated myth IMO that many subscribe to. Even if a machinst using state of the art NASA quality surface grinders, etc., to achieve perfection for nipple thread depth and absolutely no cylinder endshake there would still be variance due to cylinder wobble as well as variance in the nipples & caps themselves. In other words, you NEED to have the hammer contact the nipple to insure complete ignition. The cap is made of soft alloy and & buffers the hammer drop.  

[Claypipe]

This is a perpetuated myth IMO that many subscribe to. Even if a machinst using state of the art NASA quality surface grinders, etc., to achieve perfection for nipple thread depth and absolutely no cylinder endshake there would still be variance due to cylinder wobble as well as variance in the nipples & caps themselves. In other words, you NEED to have the hammer contact the nipple to insure complete ignition. The cap is made of soft alloy and & buffers the hammer drop.  

But if the hammer over travels or the cone is too long, then damage is done to the cone. By fitting the nipple to the cap, you avoid splitting it, when the hammer drops. When the hammer over travels or the cone angle is too sharp,  the cap splits and then is deformed by the back gases escaping the the nipple. Treco nipples design cuts down on the amount of back gases. Also, their quality control makes sure the proper angle of the cone is kept. Which, in turn, keeps the cap from being turned inside out.

There has to be a certain amount of play to prevent nipple damage. Like setting the points in a 70's muscle car or old style Motorcycle. So, no you don't need contact with the nipple itself to achieve complete ignition of the cap.

CP

[Blackpowder Burn]

FCK,

I should probably have been more specific with that comment.  What I did was do the little test where you apply rearward pressure on the front of the cylinder while lowering the hammer and pushing forward on it.  I felt no cylinder movement when I did that.  There may be a very light contact, or the hammer may just clear.  At any rate, there is no gross overtravel and ignition has been 100% reliable.

[Mako]

But if the hammer over travels or the cone is too long, then damage is done to the cone. By fitting the nipple to the cap, you avoid splitting it, when the hammer drops. When the hammer over travels or the cone angle is too sharp,  the cap splits and then is deformed by the back gases escaping the the nipple...
CP

Claypipe,
First of all please forgive me trying to step into the void left by our board expert, but I must politely disagree.  Caps are split by pressure coming back through the flash hole, not by a hammer blow.  The caps are an intentionally soft copper alloy and will deform from a hammer blow, not cut or split.  This of course requires the cap be seated, you could create a thousand scenarios where you could set it up wrong to attempt to split the cap while seating.  If you seat the cap as I have shown on a post on the second page of this thread then the hammer will not split the cap (unless of course you use a leaf spring from one of your afore mentioned muscle cars).

You can test the premise yourself by killing 6 caps with oil and then snapping them until the cows come home.  Use one of your pistols with your custom fit cones. You won't see splits or petaling. Then take your pistol and use a full charge (use at least 30 grains in an Army model) with fresh caps and you will see them peel up like a daisy.

Caps flattening are something that is inherent to C&B shooting.  That is if you are using what would be considered combat loads.  Back down to less than 27 grains of 3f and it begins to change.  Treso cones help attenuate the back pressure, but they don't stop it.  Treso cones in my experience, while not as extensive as Bruce's (He's probably out shooting right now before breakfast, he even moved further East to be able to begin shooting earlier in the day.) help prevent cap fragmenting with 30gr loads and caps sometimes almost look intact except for discoloration with loads in the 25-26gr range.

The channel in the recoil shield is there to guide the deformed cap out of the weapon.  The intention was to have them fall out on the starboard side after they had been fired.

Well, I've done it again...I sure wish he would get back.

Regards,
Mako

[Noz]

Mako, My experience is agreeable with yours. I find that a charge of FFg between 22 and 25 grs will loosen the cap but not blow it into fragments. I shoot a lot of cowboy with the 1860 Armys and have settled on about 22 grs as the ideal load for that application. I frequently have to pick the fired caps off of the nipples at the unloading table but rarely do I have a cap fall into the internals of the guns.

It makes for a more harmonious outcome.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Mako and Noz,

Now that's really useful and interesting information.  I've been shooting a 30 grain charge in my Dragoon, and have, indeed had the caps "daisy" as you've described.  So if I try backing down to about 25 grains, that should largely disappear?  I'll have to go try that.  Of course, 25 grains in a Dragoon seems like a real waste!    What is your opinion of performing the modifications as per Utah's article - putting the pin in in the hammer channel and opening the clearances between the cylinder and the recoil shield - to eliminate cap jamming?

By the way, what charge would you recommend with an 1851 Navy 36 caliber to avoid splitting the caps?  I have a friend still struggling with the problem after installing the Treso nipples.

[Cemetery]

I use 40grains of FFg in my Old Army's and my caps starfish, and on occasion jam up the gun.  I was advised to cut the grainage in half, and this will help with the caps starfishing and such, but I personally feel that if I'm gonna reduce my load to around 20grains of FFg, well, what's the point, I might as well go back to my 38spl.  So cutting the load doesn't work for me right now, and I just have to roll with the punches I guess when I get a cap that jams the works.

[Noz]

The safety slot in the hammer is a real problem in the Colts. It doesn't take too much back blast to push the cap into the slot with enough force to pull the cap off of the nipple then drop it between the hammer and the frame.  I fill the slot with JB weld and that stops 90+% of the cap jams under the hammer. The durability of the JB Weld fix is in direct proportion to the amount of time spent preparing the hammer prior to the application of the JB Weld. Fingers gets a lenghty fix while mine must be re-applied every couple of months.
Now if someone could come up with a way to keep the hot caps from falling between the grip and palm , that would be welcome.
The pins in the hammers and the Manhattan Conversions are a waste of time and money.
I like to work on the cheap.
I have no experience with 36s so I can't help on load data for them.
Cemetery, the smoke and beller are still there with the lighter loads and the recoil remains enough to let you know you shot something. With a Dragoon  or Walker you would have to add a bunch of filler or wads to get any kind of compression on a 20 gr load.
Some of the Ruger shooters have extended rammers or load off of the gun to get good compression on their 15-17 gr loads.  I tried 19 in my Armys and I get the whap-whoomp of the uncompressed load.

[Capt. Augustus]

Noz,
That is the track I took several years ago.  I found a brass washer that  fit in the hammer slot, that I would cut a section out of.  I then would silver solder it in place and trim the excess.  It worked great.  I am starting back into cap and balls and thinking about trying JB Weld to hold the brass piece in the hammer.

[Claypipe]

Claypipe,
First of all please forgive me trying to step into the void left by our board expert, but I must politely disagree.  Caps are split by pressure coming back through the flash hole, not by a hammer blow.  The caps are an intentionally soft copper alloy and will deform from a hammer blow, not cut or split.  This of course requires the cap be seated, you could create a thousand scenarios where you could set it up wrong to attempt to split the cap while seating.  If you seat the cap as I have shown on a post on the second page of this thread then the hammer will not split the cap (unless of course you use a leaf spring from one of your afore mentioned muscle cars).

Well, I politely agree to disagree. First off, I do not recall mentioning anything about caps splitting when seated. As over the past forty two years of experience shooting blackpowder and using percussion caps, in that time, I have seen more than a few caps fail to fire and split by hammer fall. Due to the angle of the cone, there would be too much distance between the top of the cone and the primer area of the cap. And being a cheap b@$t@rd by nature, I don't spend money on anything that I can fix myself. In the old days, that was called self reliance.

You can test the premise yourself by killing 6 caps with oil and then snapping them until the cows come home.  Use one of your pistols with your custom fit cones. You won't see splits or petaling. Then take your pistol and use a full charge (use at least 30 grains in an Army model) with fresh caps and you will see them peel up like a daisy.

Actually, that has already been done with all my CB revolvers and long arms. It is the first thing I do with a new acquistion. And why, years ago, I started the practice of fitting my nipples to caps. No slight meant by the way I word this, but, I am new to this dress up affair you call CAS. I am an old hand when it comes to shooting and hunting with CB firearms. Let me put it this way, my Colt type third model dragoon cost me a whole $25 brand new from the importer.

Caps flattening are something that is inherent to C&B shooting.  That is if you are using what would be considered combat loads.  Back down to less than 27 grains of 3f and it begins to change.  Treso cones help attenuate the back pressure, but they don't stop it.  Treso cones in my experience, while not as extensive as Bruce's (He's probably out shooting right now before breakfast, he even moved further East to be able to begin shooting earlier in the day.) help prevent cap fragmenting with 30gr loads and caps sometimes almost look intact except for discoloration with loads in the 25-26gr range.

Combat loads? Oh, that's right. I forget at times people can't handle normal loads. I always keep one revolver loaded with 30 grains per chamber, 5 chambers, for varmints, such as coons, possums and two legged snakes.

The channel in the recoil shield is there to guide the deformed cap out of the weapon.  The intention was to have them fall out on the starboard side after they had been fired.

Well, considering how you are restricted from the use of the proper over the shoulder cocking of a CB revolver, it can be frustrating. That's the way I was taught, in the hills of North Carolina, by my first step father's granfather, who was taught by his father who was reputed to be a Confederate Cavalry soldier.

Well, I've done it again...I sure wish he would get back.

Regards,
Mako

What got you sweating? We're having a nice civil dialogue here. Nobody calling anybody out. We have two different trains of thought on the same subject. While Tresco nipples are probably a great product for some. The way they constrict the fire channel in the nipple gives me cause for concern. Having had to use my CB revolvers in the past for the defense of life, limb and property, I need to be sure that my gun functions as it should. When it comes to "target" shooting, I'm not so serious. I once shot a steel challenge match with a Thames Arms 5 shot .38 S&W. That peeved more than a few shooters when I came in second place.

In this day and age, there are few places where people like myself can go to discuss firearms, let alone cap and ball guns, without people looking at you like you have two heads. I'm not here to challenge anyone, or looking for a fight. Only to enjoy good discourse of ideas. And share what I have learned from experience. Book learning is great. I am a self edumacated c00na$$, stuck in a pile of political correctness.

CP

[Mako]

...What got you sweating? ...
CP

Claypipe,
I find myself at a loss for a response.   I am just a simple pistolero, with your bona fides this is obviously a job for Fiddler.  I have never engaged in a debate or even a conversation with a Gonnemeister, fortunately Fiddler always has an answer and sees things that the rest of us can't see.

Regards,
Mako (WWBD)