Cap'n Ball Capping Questions

[Lucky R. K.]

Cemetary,

Mis-read your post.  Thought you were shooting Remingtons. Never mind.

My Ruger Old Armies also have Treso's that take #11 caps. I normally do not have cap problems with 25 to 35 grains of 2F.

Don't know what to tell you.

Lucky 

[Cemetery]

Cemetary,

My Ruger Old Armies also have Treso's that take #11 caps. I normally do not have cap problems with 25 to 35 grains of 2F.

Lucky 

People told me that I could use #10s on Treso's even though they call for #11s.  I'll get a tin or two of #11s and give it shot.

[Fiddler Green]

Oh God, this is going to get me flamed!

First, let me say that I am a "Self taught" black powder shooter and I work for the world's largest consumer of smokeless powder. I didn't take it up yesterday so I really don't care how long the "experts" out there have been shooting. Come out and beat me I'll be more impressed with you.....talk about it and I'll be less impressed. I've also shot around two dozen CAS matches with C&B pistols and finished as high as second doing it (see my profile picture  to see me shooting a 1858 in a match), I've competed in muzzle loading rifle matches and successfully hunted wild boar with a .54 Cal Plains Rifle....using a round lead ball.

That said, I don't always agree with the rank and file, when it comes to C&B shooting. And, I don't here......

I just went through this with a local guy I drug over to the dark side..........

First, put the standard nipples back on the gun. After 100 rounds, 98% of your problems will fade away. The hole in the standard nipples is smaller then in the after market, "Hot" nipples and causes less back blast. Yea, I know, that big old hole gives you better ignition, Not what I've seen. What it gives you is more back blast.

The standard nipples are steel not stainless steel. They take a while to "rough up" the surface and then they shoot great: Be patient all will come to you. My first few times shooting my (Pietta) C&B pistols, I got allot of cap jams too. Now, I use a small screw driver to kick the caps off the nipples after shooting.

I don't use wads, I put all the BP I can into the cylinders and still be able to seat the ball, then, I squeeze in Bore Butter to cover everything up. I you shoot CAS, you'll find that you have to load your cylinders as soon as your done shooting the stage and then have them sit around with the lube from the wads migrating into your powder. That's not really good. If it's really hot, I mix Bees Wax with Bore butter to thicken it up. Does it drip some? Yea! Your shooting black powder.....you're going to get dirty....if you don't like getting dirty...don't get into shooting....take up doll collecting. I hear it's cleaner.

I know you're not that close to Reno, but, if your ever out here, let me know and we'll go shooting. The same offer holds for anyone else who wants to see how I handle C&B guns or could careless how I do it but just wants to shoot one.

Bruce

[Flint]

Though the Armys and Navys work well with Remington #10 caps, the Dragoon nipples are made for #11 caps.

[Ellsworth MacDoogle]

A very simple thing to try (if it hasn't already been mentioned) is to fill the hammer face with epoxy to smooth it out. This stops the hammer from breaking the caps into small pieces and stops the caps from sticking to the hammer (which then fall into the action). After doing this (and installing Tresos) my Pietta 1860 Army stopped getting jammed up. Also - after every shot turn the gun to the right while cocking and the caps should (for the most part) fall free from the gun. IMO - The Colt versions need more smithin' at first, but are just more "old westy" and fun to shoot 

[Pettifogger]

"The hole in the standard nipples is smaller then in the after market, "Hot" nipples and causes less back blast."  I have never seen a "hot" nipple for a revolver, only for hunting rifles.  The hole in a Treso is MUCH smaller than the flash hole in the stock nipple.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Thanks, guys - some more ideas to try.

Mad Dog, I had found that article but didn't see the comments on the nipples and hammer near the end in my earlier scanning.  As I said, my wife frequently tells me I am incapable of seeing something right in front of my face.

I do find that on my Dragoons with Treso nipples that the number 11's are decidedly loose, and the 10's fit snugly.

[Fiddler Green]

" The hole in a Treso is MUCH smaller than the flash hole in the stock nipple.

Not the ones I have!

Bruce

[Pettifogger]

Not the ones I have!

Bruce

You seem to be the odd man out on every issue.  I have installed hundreds of Tresos and they are more uniform in exterior dimensions and the flash hole is smaller than any stock Pietta or Uberti nipple.

[Claypipe]

While I've been shooting BP in cartridge guns for quite a while now, I've just begun working with cap'n ball revolvers.  I got a Colt Dragoon (Uberti) and shot it yesterday for the first time.  The pard I got it from had installed Treso nipples, and I had some #10 Remington caps, so I thought everything would work "perfectly".

I loaded the gun with 30 grains of Goex FFg (didn't have any FFFg on hand), a lubed wad, and a round ball.  I seated the Remington caps and used a push stick to make sure they were completely seated.  Ignition was no problem, they all fired the first time.  However, all the caps came off the nipples, and about 30% to 40% of the caps bound up the gun.  All were flattened and "starfished".  Those that bound up the gun wound up either between the cylinder and frame, or between the hammer and frame.

I've read the Remington #10 caps are the best to use with the Treso nipples.  The ones I have on hand are old - probably in excess of 30 years old.  Are the new Remingtons different?  Am I missing some trick here?

Any help would be appreciated.

Let me warn ya, it may not be as simple as just replacing the nipples. Nipples often need to be fitted for caps. Here's what I do to make sure I have reliable detonation.

Once the new nipples are installed, quite often your hammer will fall on the cap and nothing happens. The first thing many will tell you to do is to replace your main spring. This may help and again it may not. The most likely cause for this mis-fire is not the mainspring, but an over sized nipple cone.

To cure this problem, you will need masking tape, a power drill, a fine grain knife sharpening stone, dishsoap, a percussion cap and a small amount of water. I generally do this job at the kitchen sink when the ole lady is not at home.

First wrap the threads of the nipple to be honed with masking tape. Two to three wraps should do the trick. Once that is done, chuck the threaded end of the nipple in the power drill. Now put a small amount of dishsoap, mixed with a couple of drops of water, on your stone. Making sure you match the original angle of the cone and with the drill on low, careful not to overheat your nipple, slowly turn the cone side of the nipple on your stone. Don't over do it, keep stopping every so often to use the cap as a guage to ensure a proper fit.

Once you are sure that you have a proper fit, be sure to clean the nipple thoroughly and that the vent is clear of debris. Remove masking tape, dry, oil and install on your gun. I use a little plumber's teflon tape to install mine. If you try this, make sure you don't cover the vent hole.

Now, should you find that your nipples are too long, Then shorten them by using the nipple to "drill" into the sharpening stone, then fit to the cap as previously outlined.

Repeat five times.

[Mako]

Not the ones I have!

Bruce

Oh Bruce!
You are quite the joker, I am smiling again!  But, we best be careful because not everyone has the vast experience you have and they might mistake your jest for factual information.

In order to help you illustrate what you were actually telling us "tongue in cheek" I am including a photo of a standard cone that came on a pistol and a Treso cone at the flash hole exit.  I have also included a simple rendering of the two cones showing cross sections.

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap%20N%20Ball%20Questions/FlashHoles1-2.jpg
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Cap%20N%20Ball%20Questions/sidebysidecones2-1.jpg

So what our friend Mr. B.B. is actually telling us (wink, wink) is that the Treso cones are designed to attenuate the pressure coming back through the flash hole after ignition.

Your friend and humble student,
Mako

[Fingers McGee]

Very nice graphics Mako.  Good to hear from you.

[Mako]

Hey Ag,
I apologize for not providing this to you earlier.  You have received some interesting answers to your original question... I am going to post several illustrations explaining the difference between the Remington #10 and #11 caps.  Always remember they have the same internal dimensions, they will both accept a Ø.166 gage pin.  The difference is in the skirt length.  If I had to state a nominal dimension for the height of each I think it would be fair to call the #10 to be .175" tall and the #11 to be .145".

When determining which cap to use you would normally try a #11 first to see if it fits and then only go to a #10 if the fit was loose.  Conversely you would go to a #11 if the #10 cap wouldn't fully seat when a push stick is used.  BE CAREFUL!!  You are pushing against priming compound, light force is the watchword for cap seating.  In the cross section views below you will see both conditions.

Before we move on we should discuss the other caps normally available in the U.S., those being CCI and RWS.  The RWS is roughly equivalent to a Rem. #11 in fit.  The CCI #10 is the tighter fitting of the two CCI caps, but they have their own unique diameters unlike the Remington caps.  The table below shows the pertinent dimensions.

CAP	I.D.	Height
Rem 10	0.166"	0.175"
Rem 11	0.166"	0.154"
CCI 10	0.161"	0.163"
CCI 11	0.166"	0.165"
RWS 1075	0.165"	0.160"

The caps are shown on a modeled generic factory steel cone.  The Treso cones can sometimes accommodate both style Remington caps, this is why you find different people recommending one or the other for the same model Treso cones.  Treso cones have a less taper and a much better finish than factory or other after market cones. The design has been optimized for Remington caps.









As a side note, I have two sets of Treso cones I specifically modified to use the Remington #10 caps.  There was a period I couldn't find any #11s.  I built an adapter to hold the cones in a lathe chuck  and turned each taper to accept the #10 cap with a light press fit.  If I put a Rem. #11 on those modified cones they will fall off when the cones are clean.

One last thing to consider... Remington #10 caps feed better in a Cash capper.  Sometimes the #11s will get wedged or even get turned sideways. The Cash capper tray was designed to accommodate the taller #10 (.175") caps so there is an additional .03" of clearance when the #11s are used.  I plan on modifying one of my cappers to accept only Remington #11 caps some day, I just keep getting other projects in the way.

I will create some illustrations to show how to set up the cylinder clearance and cone length sometime and I'll make sure you get a copy.  It's not complex, it's just easier to explain when you have something to refer to.

The best to you,
Mako

[Pettifogger]

Great drawings!  Really helps when you try to explain that a Remington 10 and 11 are the same ID and that the only difference is skirt length.  These drawings will really demonstrate why a 10 is "tighter" on the nipple even though it is the same ID.  This will also help explain why 11s tend to tip over in a capper.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Damn Mako!! Thanks for the superb graphics!!  Got any for Obamacare?

[Fiddler Green]

Oh Bruce!
You are quite the joker, I am smiling again!  But, we best be careful because not everyone has the vast experience you have and they might mistake your jest for factual information.

In order to help you illustrate what you were actually telling us "tongue in cheek" I am including a photo of the standard Uberti and a Treso cone at the flash hole exit.  I have also included a simple rendering of the two cones showing cross sections.  Just click on them to make them larger.

So what our friend Mr. B.B. is actually telling us (wink, wink) is that the Ampco cones are designed to attenuate the pressure coming back through the flash hole after ignition.

Your friend and humble student,
Mako

Ah, Mako,

See your still spending more time on the internet and not hitting the range. So, if what you say is true (and I'm not so sure) why then do the Treso nipples seem to blow apart the When the standard nipples don't? Hummmmm....... This may require that you go out and shoot a gun.

Bruce

[Mako]

Ah, Mako,

See your still spending more time on the internet and not hitting the range. So, if what you say is true (and I'm not so sure) why then do the Treso nipples seem to blow apart the When the standard nipples don't? Hummmmm....... This may require that you go out and shoot a gun.

Bruce

Thanks Bruce,
This is important news, we may need to have Cuts post this in the Dark Arts section. I will admit this is the first reported case I have ever heard of a Treso Cone blowing apart.  Manganese Bronze is incredibly strong, well in my world it is...You have done us all a service.

Do you have any pictures of these cones?  I usually find things that go wrong much more interesting than than things that work as expected.  That goes for more than just firearms, but I guess that is pretty obvious by now.

So, if what you say is true (and I'm not so sure)

You do realize that is a picture of the flash holes don't you?  

I'll spread the word...

Regards,
Mako

[Blackpowder Burn]

Mako,

I do so enjoy the witty repartee between you and Bruce - most amusing!

Seriously, thanks for all the excellent information.  The drawings and cap dimensions are interesting and valuable.  What you've shown makes me think I need to go buy some new caps of various brands and try them out.  The ones I have presently are quite old - some probably on the order of 30 years of age, and the dimensions are different that what you show.  I don't have the gauge pins to check ID, but I do have a good set of dial calipers I can use to measure length.  What I found is:

Remington 10 = 0.184 length
Remington 11 = 0.166 length
Dynamit Nobel 1075 = 0.158 length

In addition, the Dynamit Nobel will not seat on the nipple, at least when dirty.  It splits before it is fully seated.

So many new experiments to run and things to tweak with new guns!  At least I have some vacation time coming up over the Holidays to allow me some time to work it all out. 

[Deadeye Dick]

Mako,
Thanks for all of the excellent information. I think there will be a lot of us pulling out our cap guns and trying out different caps now knowing what to look for.
Anyone know where you can readily purchase Treso nipples? I have one set on my Colt 2nd generation Army and it took me a long time to find them. Wish I had purchased several sets at that time. Got them from a sutler doing business at a black powder shoot.
Deadeye Dick

[Blackpowder Burn]

You can get them from The Possibles Shop (www.possibleshop.com).  Nice folks there.