Cap'n Ball Capping Questions

[Blackpowder Burn]

While I've been shooting BP in cartridge guns for quite a while now, I've just begun working with cap'n ball revolvers.  I got a Colt Dragoon (Uberti) and shot it yesterday for the first time.  The pard I got it from had installed Treso nipples, and I had some #10 Remington caps, so I thought everything would work "perfectly".

I loaded the gun with 30 grains of Goex FFg (didn't have any FFFg on hand), a lubed wad, and a round ball.  I seated the Remington caps and used a push stick to make sure they were completely seated.  Ignition was no problem, they all fired the first time.  However, all the caps came off the nipples, and about 30% to 40% of the caps bound up the gun.  All were flattened and "starfished".  Those that bound up the gun wound up either between the cylinder and frame, or between the hammer and frame.

I've read the Remington #10 caps are the best to use with the Treso nipples.  The ones I have on hand are old - probably in excess of 30 years old.  Are the new Remingtons different?  Am I missing some trick here?

Any help would be appreciated.

[Montana Slim]

From the description, it sounds like you're doing things right as far as loading...Using old vs. new caps hasn't been a problem for me...I've been using up some 30-40 yr old CVA, Dixie (CVA) & Remingtons myself (some still have the price sticker on them ...$1.49)

Could you describe more closely how the gun binds....mainly, is the gun actually bound up preventing you from cocking the hammer?...Or, is the gun msifiring on the next hammer fall?

Regards,
Slim

[Blackpowder Burn]

When the cap fragments get between the cylinder and frame, they bind it up so the gun won't cock.  This is the most frequent occurrence.  When they get between the hammer and frame, they prevent the hammer from striking the cap on the next chamber.

[Wolfgang]

I'm a Remington shooter, . . . and happy that Remington '58s don't tned to jam with the cap fragments the way Colts do.  I've heered on threads like this one that cocking the pistol with the barrel straight up ( or nearly so ) allows the fired cap to fall away rather than into the works of the gun.  Also there is a modification ( that I forget the name of ) whch prevents the caps from fallling in.  Hopefully some Colt shooter with chime in about that.   

[Howdy Doody]

It sounds like the nipples are a tad long. The hammer is destroying the caps upon hitting them. Things like that are hard to say for sure without a dial caliper and some careful checking out.

In the good old days shooters would fire, then shake to the right before lining up for the next shot and that helped clear the spent caps from jamming the action. Not too practical for CAS shooting to do that though. Manhattan conversions help a lot from caps going rearward through the hammer slot and into the hammer trough.

If you got the original nipples with the revolver, it would be good to compare them to the Tresos.

[Lone Oak]

Here you go Aggie

http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/colt_cap_and_ball.pdf

Lone Oak

[Blackpowder Burn]

Howdy Doody,

I have the original nipples, but will have to get a nipple wrench to remove the Treso's before I can compare lengths. I've got this revolver on loan and haven't bought all the odds and ends I need yet.  I do notice that the hammer contacts the end of the nipples.  I read in another post that it should just clear the nipple when fully forward.  Is this what you are referring to?

Lone Oak,

Thanks for the article.  I remember seeing it before, but didn't know where to locate it.  I can see where that would cure the problem, but I can't do any of the work until I decide whether to buy this pair of Dragoons or not.  They are really nice guns, virtually unfired and the price is definitely right.  I'll just have to take a leap of faith with them before I start in with the drill and dremel.

The other option is getting a Remington - I've heard they don't have this problem.  The design certainly precludes the cap getting between the hammer and frame.  I don't know about the issue of jamming between the cylinder and recoil shield. 

[Lucky R. K.]

I have an 1860 Cenature that dropped cap fragments down between the hammer and frame most of the time.  I made the modification listed in the article Lone Wolf pointed out and solved the problem.

If you are not handy with working on guns I would suggest you get a Remington 1858.  They are much more reliable to shoot than any of the Colts.

Lucky 

[Montana Slim]

http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/colt_cap_and_ball.pdf

I'd like to review this information, but I get an error from the link (cannot find).

Based on the further description, it sounds like the cap is getting overpressured and flattened. Could be helped by reducing the height of the cone, or facing the hammer. As far as firing technique, I've found raising the revolver muzzle upwards while cocking to be a bad habit.. Not only does it raise the hammer while pointed in a potentiallly unsafe direction (over a berm)...but also helps allow a spent cap to fall back into the action. Far better, IMO, to slightly lower the muzzle while cocking and twist to the right - one more of my "secrets" revealed (ok, I've mentioned this one before) 
Slim

[Noz]

ALL of the cap and ball copies require some "tweaking" before they will run consistently. That tweaking may be minor on guns such as Rugers or major on some of the period pieces. I have never been able to keep a Remington clean enough to run a full match. Just as well in that they don't fit my hands anyway.
The Colt copies have some inherent problems that are easily fixed. TRESO nipples fix most of those problems. #10 Remington caps fix a lot more. Then you deal with the weakest part of the guns in the hand springs. Several easy repairs and or replacements there.
One thing overlooked is charge level. You can load any of these guns way over good operating levels. A heavy charge will blow caps off of the nipples on any of them with any types of nipples. You must develop a charge level that will give you the satisfaction of the "buck and beller" and at the same time allow the caps to be retained on the nipples until the cylinder is advanced. At that time the caps are supposed to fall off of the nipples and out of the gun.  My experience say anything over 28 grs is asking for trouble with the caps. I'm now shooting between 20 and 24 grs in mine. The rammer on the guns is too short to allow you to shoot 20 grs with out a wad or filler.
I shoot Pietta 1860 copies exclusively. I will frequently run 10-12 stage matches with no cleaning and no cap problems. Where the bullet might go is another matter.

[Fox Creek Kid]

I was shooting a new Uberti '51 Navy once with stock nipples when it locked up tighter than Nancy Pelosi at an NRA fundraiser!! A cap fragment wormed its way down the front of the hammer and wedged in the BOLT SLOT!!    I had to do a complete disassembly at the bench. Switched to Tresos and never looked back. The key is a good nipple and proper fitting caps IMO. Imagine this happening in the midst of an Indian battle!! 

[Drayton Calhoun]

I've had the same problem myself, once actually had a piece of cap go completely into the action. That one had me scratching my head. The problem I had with the old CVA caps was getting them off after firing.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Noz,

Thanks, that's very interesting.  These are, of course, Dragoons, so the chambers have a larger capacity than 1860 Army's.  I was shooting 30 grains, and the ball was seated pretty far down in the chamber.  I'll have to see how far I can back off and still seat the ball deep enough to eliminate the air space.

Even with 30 grains in the Dragoons there was almost zero recoil - those dang things are heavy!!  I was actually hoping to increase the charge nearer to their maximum capacity to make more smoke and boom.  Of well, such is life.

[Pettifogger]

30 grains in a Dragoon or Walker is not a heavy load.  If you have are having cap problems with 30 grains in a Dragoon the problem isn't the charge, it's somewhere else.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Pettifogger,

Thanks, that was my gut feeling, too.  However, I am a novice with cap'n ball revolvers.  I am considering making the modifications referred to in the article link proivded by Lone Oak above.  Do you have any thoughts on that?  Or any other suggestions?

[Noz]

The Dark Arts child board, found above has 2 article from the Cowboy Chronicals written by the esteemed Mr. Pettigogger. they deal with tuning cap and ball revolvers for competition.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Noz,

I looked there, but can't find them.  Of course, I've been accused of being unable to see the obvious that's shoved right into my face, too.

[Mad_Dog]

Noz,
I looked there, but can't find them.  Of course, I've been accused of being unable to see the obvious that's shoved right into my face, too.

I believe this :

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,25009.0.html

to be a link to the post in question, which contains a pair of .pdf files on tuning a Pietta cap and ball revolver.  (part 1 is taking it apart and identying pieces and problems, part 2 is fixing the problems and putting it back together)

-Mad Dog

[Cemetery]

I get the same problem using 40grains and Remington #10s in my Old Army's.  It was suggested that I drop in Treso nipples, which I did, but problem continues.

[Lucky R. K.]

Cemetary,

I changed the nipples in my two Pietta 1858 Remington's to Treso which take a #11 cap.  I can put 40 to 50 rounds thru each gun with no cap problems.  I have shot 20 to 35 grain 2F charges and none have caused problems with caps.

Maybe 40 grains is a bit to much.

Lucky