BP pistol for a potential CAS newbie

[Mad_Dog]

Hey guys!  I'm a green-horn fresh in from back East, looking at testing the waters of Cowboy Action Shooting... and just target shooting with Black Powder in general.  I know that if I get a pistol, I want to shoot black powder.  It seems that percussion cap/ball seems like it might be a cheaper way to get my feet wet, but I really don't know anything about the advantages/disadvantages of cap and ball vs. cartridge (other than BP cartridges seem expensive!).  If I really got into the sport I could see investing in reloading equipment and making my own BP loads (I honestly have no interest in shooting smokeless... sorry!), but my hobby budget is small and pulled in multiple directions at once .

I have my great-grand-dad's old Iver Johnson 12-guage (single shot, breech loading, top break, etc) that I think is legit, and I'd love to get it checked out and into shooting shape... I haven't done so since my initial research indicated it might not be built to modern ammunition standards (almost certainly 2.5" chamber, and likely designed for BP instead of smokeless) but 2.5" BP shot-shells sounds like just the trick for CAS anyways!

Rifle I'll probably have to hold off on for the moment, but I might be able to invest in a single pistol in the relatively near future (yay for christmas!).

So for the million dollar question... what would you guys suggest for a newbie in my situation?

many thanks!

-Mad Dog

[Major 2]

Back east ? where ?

Just going on what you have written..... 58 Remington(s)

Though, I'm a Colt fan and shoot 51's & 60's and their conversions.... I suggest getting your feet wet with the NMA Remington.

Cabelas sells the steel frame Pietta @ a reasonable price
down the road you could up grade it to a coversion if you like.

[Jefro]

Howdy Mad Dog, my suggestion would be a 5.5'' USFA Rodeo from Longhunter, or for even more savings an Uberti Cattleman from Cody, in .38 or .45. It might be a little easier to start with a cartridge gun than cap and ball, plus if you decide to shoot smokeless in any of the other categories you will have a gun ready for both. The .38 will cost less in brass, powder and bullets (158gr Snakebite) than the .45, unless of course you use the Cowboy 45 Special case and the EPP-UG 150gr bullet. Then the cost is about the same to reload but the brass cost more. I shoot both, but I do shoot the .38 more often cause my rifle is the same caliber. For cap and ball, the 1851 Navy is hard to beat and easy on the pocket book for reloading. Having said that.....before you do anything, or spend a dime, start going to as many local matches as possible to give it a try. You will find most CASers, and BP shooters will gladly let you shoot thier guns and try out the gear, we're wierd that way. Introduce yourself and let them know you are intersted in BP, folks will start handing you guns saying "try mine"   Tell us where you are located and we might have a set for you to try this weekend. Good Luck

Jefro

[Wolfgang]

I wuz in the same sort of "wanta try it out" situation 8 years ago, . . . had never had a "cowboy / western" gun . . . never shot black powder . . . looking fur a cheap way to get my "feet wet" . . . looked on "Gunbroker" . . . saw a used '58 Remington by Pietta . . . bought it for $ 130.    Was in love the instant I had it in my hands . . . . and was HOOKED from the first shot.   You can invest in cartridge guns later if you want the convenience of cartridge.   I was certainly influenced by havng once seen Eastwoods film "Pale Rider" where he used Remingtons.  I have aquired a few more www.drburkholter.com/cf6.html.  . . . just a few  .  Along with plenty of other stuff . . . and it is all FUN !   

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy!

Mad Dog, a steel-framed C&B gun may be the best all around way to start.  The '58 Remington has been suggested and the Colts have been mentioned.  I have both and I doubt you could go wrong with either.  The Rodeo or Cattleman have been suggested and are great cartridge guns, but I do think, that money-wise, the C&B guns are cheaper shooting ... but they DO take a bit more dedication.  By the way, the Remington C&B as well as some of the Colt C&Bs CAN be converted to fire cartridges, but the conversion units are about $250 to $300 shipped, 'tho you do end up pretty much with 2 guns in the end.

I wuz in the same sort of "wanta try it out" situation 8 years ago, . . . had never had a "cowboy / western" gun . . . never shot black powder . . . looking fur a cheap way to get my "feet wet" . . . looked on "Gunbroker" . . . saw a used '58 Remington by Pietta . . . bought it for $ 130.    Was in love the instant I had it in my hands . . . . and was HOOKED from the first shot.   You can invest in cartridge guns later if you want the convenience of cartridge.   I was certainly influenced by havng once seen Eastwoods film "Pale Rider" where he used Remingtons.  I have aquired a few more www.drburkholter.com/cf6.html.  . . . just a few  .  Along with plenty of other stuff . . . and it is all FUN !   

Wolfgang, did you put the lanyard rings on those pistols yourself?  I have an 1875 Remington I wish to add one to.  MANY of the originals and almost ALL of the ones that have survived for me to see pictures of have them.  I want one, but I will have to worry about cutting the serial # in twain, so that's why I haven't done it already.

[Mad_Dog]

Wow, thanks for all the replies guys!  I loves me a friendly forum

Back east ? where ?
Just going on what you have written..... 58 Remington(s)

Down Alabama ways, Huntsville area (little town on the outskirts, but close enough).  Thanks for the recommendation!  I was looking at Cabela's cap-and-ball, and I must say I like the look of that '58 Remington.  I suspect that the open top of the '51 and '60 might grow on me, but when first looking through Cabela's selection the '58 New Army .44 was definately one I liked.  Is there any advantage to the .44  vs. the .36 "Police", or vice versa?

For cap and ball, the 1851 Navy is hard to beat and easy on the pocket book for reloading. Having said that.....before you do anything, or spend a dime, start going to as many local matches as possible to give it a try. You will find most CASers, and BP shooters will gladly let you shoot thier guns and try out the gear, we're wierd that way. Introduce yourself and let them know you are intersted in BP, folks will start handing you guns saying "try mine"   Tell us where you are located and we might have a set for you to try this weekend. Good Luck

True that!  I don't know how long Cabela's sale goes on, but at $149, I suspect I'd be hard-pressed to find a used gun at that price, much less a new one.

I live reasonably close to the North Alabama Regulator's home turf, and they have a shoot scheduled for Dec 5.  I'm trying to talk my wife into taking the family out to the cowboy action shoot, and then going to the nearby Cathedral Caverns and making a day of it!  She's a little worried about taking our 6 year old to a shooting event, but I'm working on her!

Mad Dog, a steel-framed C&B gun may be the best all around way to start.  The '58 Remington has been suggested and the Colts have been mentioned.  I have both and I doubt you could go wrong with either.  The Rodeo or Cattleman have been suggested and are great cartridge guns, but I do think, that money-wise, the C&B guns are cheaper shooting ... but they DO take a bit more dedication.

Cool, I like it when a recommendation comes from multiple sources!  I may eventually change my mind, but I'm hoping that shooting a cap-and-ball revolver will be kind of like flying black-powder clusters at a model rocket launch.  I enjoy sitting at my prep table, getting the rocket ready while watching other people fly almost as much as when I get to fly my own (well, there's something about that moment when all 7 motors launch, and again when the 'chute pops right at apogee that's hard to beat, but I definately enjoy the whole prep process as well).  I may not fly as many rockets as someone using composite single-use motors, or even someone flying reloads, but that big cloud of black powder smoke is somehow much more satisfying

-Mad Dog

[Montana Slim]

No need to fear C&B...I started with my first when I was 14.
My Pa never owned a pistol, but he let me pick out the revolver, spending $45 from my first summer job. We both learned along the way....although, it seems I just knew what needed done. Not sure how I would have known, since TV shows wouldn't show loading one & we couldn't afford to drive 30 miles to a library that we couldn't even check a book out of.

With today's information at your fingertips, you have many advantages.

As far as choices...although I'm a die-hard Colt C&B shooter, I do own a Remington New Model Army & heartily recomend this model as a "first" C&B for those new to the hobby.

Regards,
Slim

[hellgate]

Hey mad dog,
I've been shooting in the frontiersman category before it was a category (i.e. "black-powder"). You might want to google "Frontiersman for Dummies" by Captain Baylor. He uses Ruger Old Armies but he's got a ton of good info. Actually, shooting C&B is not cheaper than cartridge shooting: the caps, balls, powder and all the trinkets needed to keep them going add up but are 10 times more fun. I'd recommend a Remington 44. If you have small hands the Euroarms is nice with the smallest grips. The Pietta is the beefiest and Uberti in the middle. They all feel and handle differently but all hold more powder and will shoot both ball or conical, unlike many Colts. I shoot Colts too and favor the Navies for best handling & balance. I have some 44cal Navies that are my favorite shooters but the Remmies are the work guns. When you start out don't worry about your speed. Just have fun.

The single barrel shotgun will be soon set aside for a nice double (Stevens 311, IGA Coach gun, TTN Colt hammered). The 2.5" shotshells can be made out of cut down 2 3/4 and roll crimped.

You can usually find  inexpensive used Rossi 1892 carbines for around  $300 in 38/357 (what I use) or 45 LC. The 1866s & '73s are nice guns but a lot more expensive but if short stroked & slicked are much faster to operate. If you are out for fun then speed is not an issue.If you really care about winning a category then you will need to pay for the privilege through some gun purchases and smiting. I'm too cheap. Besides there is a new saying: (in effect) if you shoot enough Italian replica C&Bs you eventually become an amateur gunsmith.

[Wolfgang]

Steel Horse . . . you can get a lanyard ring from VTI Gun Parts.  It is the one that Uberti puts on the 1890 Remingtons.  I got one of them some years back when I'd been searching in vain for a lanyard ring to replace the one missing on one of my Webley MK VIs.  It was way big, but worked.  Then I found that Webley shooters that needed a lanyard ring were getting them from Numrich Arms.  They don't have the correct one for the Webleys ( no one does, I'd been looking for 30 years ) but there is one that is close.  Part  # 536850.  It is actually correct for a flare pistol.  It is what I put on my '58s.  On the inventory for my insurance I simply changed the serial no. to be the remaining numbers with a "gap" for the ones that got drilled out.  If your cartridge pistol is "papered" to you . . you might restamp the full seriall number under the grip, or under the barrel.     

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Thanks for the info, Wolfgang.

[Wolfgang]

Thanks for the info, Wolfgang.

Yur welcome, . . . . 

ps.  That VTI ring is EXPENSIVE . . . the ones from Numrich are cheap.

[fourfingersofdeath]

The Remingtons are pretty good guns and a lot of fun (I have a brass framed one, like it a lot). If you don't reload, the cap and ball guns are good because you actually do your reloading at the range. If you want to shoot black powder, you will still need to load cartridges for the carbine. If you are going to reload for the rifle anyway, unless you absolutely must have a set of cap and ball guns, it may be better to just spring for a pair of Colt clones and a Lee Loader. Then you are set up and don't have to upgrade later. The clones are not much dearer than equivelent c&b guns.

Before I plonked down any money, I'd rock along to a club and try and get to handle the various guns. You may find that the c&b guns are a complete PITA and then again you may have found your niche in the shooting world. I gave a guy who used to only shoot 9mms, 38 Supers and a 686 in 357 a go of my 58' about six months ago. He is turning up every couple of weeks with a new BP toy he has bought.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[fourfingersofdeath]

Thanks for the link to Capt Baylor's site Hellgate! Very informative.

[Pulp]

Try as hard as you can to go visit the North Alabama Regulators.  Great bunch of people.  Ask around for Andrew Quigley.  He's been shooting Frontiersman forever and will most likely have several types of guns there that he'll let you look at. 
Tell him Pulp sent you.  I live in Oklahoma and haven't been to one of their shoots in a couple of years, but planning on Ambush next October.  One of the club members is Sawyer, he's my brother, but he might not be able to make it in December as our Mom is not doing well right now.  If you decide to go cartridge get Sawyer's recipe for BP .45 Colt loads.  I'm not sure how he does it, but I think he gets about 65 grains of BP in each cartridge.    

[Major 2]

Down Alabama ways, Huntsville area (little town on the outskirts, but close enough).  Thanks for the recommendation!  I was looking at Cabela's cap-and-ball, and I must say I like the look of that '58 Remington.  I suspect that the open top of the '51 and '60 might grow on me, but when first looking through Cabela's selection the '58 New Army .44 was definately one I liked.  Is there any advantage to the .44  vs. the .36 "Police", or vice versa?


I'm in Florida, but know your area from travel.

I have suggested the Remy,  as to advantage 44 over 36 , yes and no , both are good shooters 
but if you want my 2 cents I'd say the 44.
  Main reason is it converts to cartridge with the addition of a Kirst or R&D Cylinder converting it to 45 LC.
You can get a New Pietta Remy for around $225 and used with some looking for less.
Barrel length is a matter of personal choice.

[Noz]

At least handle all of the available styles of guns before you buy. they don't feel the same.
I find that the geometry of the Remington will not allow me to reach the hammer easily when shooting duelist(one handed as required in Frontiersman)
The 1851 Colt's grip is too small for my hands but the 1860 as interpreted by Pietta fits me perfectly. I buff a little off of the back point of the grip.

The learning curve for a successful entry into the world of Frontiersman is steep. It requires a dedication that only comes with time. I too would recommend a cartridge gun in the Frontier Cartridge as a starter. Much easier to get good results quickly than any of the cap and ball guns.

[Montana Slim]

Yes, the Remmington grip & hammer are diffrent than a Colt. I reworked the wood grips on my Pietta NM Remington, sliming them down & refinishing...I'd say the grip/hammer arrangement on this revolver is as easy, if not easier to handle than my Colt's.

Don't be afraid to rework the grips if needed.

Also a reminder to put one's thumb on the hammer, then lower the muzzle to let the gun help cock itself....much easier to do duelist & helps in other functional regards as well.

Slim

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Please allow me to weigh in on this subject. I am no stranger to shooting Cap & Ball pistols, I bought my first one in 1968.

Having said that, I strongly recommend the newcomer to Cowboy shooting to start with cartridge pistols, not Cap & Ball.

The fact that C&B pistols are cheaper than cartridge pistols can obscure a few simple facts. Cartridge pistols are more reliable. That's one reason cartridges were invented in the first place. And cartridges are simpler and faster to put into the gun. That's the other reason cartridges were invented.

When you load a cartridge pistol, you simply pop the empties out and drop in new rounds. Pretty simple. With a C&B you should first determine that the nipples are clear by firing some caps on empty chambers before the start of the match. Then you must charge your chambers with powder. Bear in mind that you are dealing with an explosive, so obviously you cannot be anywhere near a heat source. I had to holler real loud one day when somebody was charging his C&B pistols from a flask right next to a guy who was smoking a cigar! A flask full of powder has the same amount of powder in it that was sometimes used in small cannons. Some clubs allow you to charge your pistols back at your cart, others want you to do it at a designated safe area. Some pards do it at the unloading table while they are watching the table. Anyhoo, you charge your chambers. You add a wad or you don't. You seat the ball. You cover the ball with grease or you don't. All this is done before the pistol is considered loaded. Then at the loading table you cap your nipples. Simply a lot more work than dropping in cartridges, and more time consuming.

Then there is the reliability issue. I know some of my pards will suggest that with the correct fitting caps and the right after market nipples a C&B will be just as reliable as a cartridge gun. That is if you can find the nipples, they have been in short supply of late, and if you can find the correct sized caps. Also not always available. Otherwise you can expect that every once in a while you will be blasting away and may have the hammer fall on a cap that does not go off. There goes your score. Even worse is the case where the cap fires but the charge does not. Should you stand there pointing the gun down range because you are unsure if the charge is slowly cooking and may fire off in 30 seconds or so? You never really know. Then there is the situation of broken caps falling down in the action and binding up the gun. Yes, there is a modification you can do to the gun, but they don't come that way. So every once in a while you may be standing there and not able to cock the hammer because a cap has fallen down inside and is jamming the gun.

Then there is cleaning the gun. I don't care what way you clean a pistol, whether you use hot water, weasel piss, murphy's mix, or anything else. You cannot get around the fact that a cartridge cylinder, with bored through chambers is easier to clean than a C&B cylinder. With a cartridge cylinder, you simply run your bore brush through the chambers with your favorite cleaning solution. Simple. A C&B chamber is not bored through. So you can't run a brush through it. In addition, there are more than one diameter in a C&B chamber, so you have to clean out the nooks and crannies. Plus, you have to remove the nipples, clean them out, and clean the threads. Then you have to put the nipples back on, being sure to leave a teeny bit of oil in the threads so the nipples don't bind while the gun is being stored.

All I am saying is, don't be fooled by the low price of C&B pistols. They do require more effort than a cartridge pistol. I learned to shoot C&B pistols long ago, long before CAS existed. It was trial and error for me, and it took me a while to get it right. And I was just fooling around in the woods, in a low pressure environment. Cap & Ball shooting can be great fun, I can attest to that. But Cowboy shooting for newcomers can be complicated enough without having to deal with the added peculiarities of shooting C&B. I would hate to see a prospective new shooter start with C&B, without realizing all that is involved, only to become discouraged and quit the sport.

At the very least, if one decides to start with C&B, take them out to the range a whole lot and get real familiar with them before showing up at your first match.

[hellgate]

Driftwood speaks from experience that I agree with. I started out with a '61 Navy and a Ruger Blackhawk. Later I borrowed a '58 Remington and learned about cap fit when the first shot jarred off the other 4 caps. Reread what he said then if you are still determined, get out and practice so you make most of  your dumb mistakes (boy, have I learned by my mistakes! [and still need to learn more]) before getting frustrated at a match and giving up on the whole sport.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Uh ... Amen.

Driftwood is right, of course.  Just don't get put off by this.  In my opinion, and apparently MOST BP and C&B shooters, the learning process IS fun.  But Mr. Johnson is spot-on regarding his points.  Most of us learned how to whip our C&B guns into shape loooooong before we started shooting them in CAS competition.

It wasn't said, but if you DO buy a C&B pistol, do yourself a BIG favor and get VERY well acquainted with your new C&B gun - if you still choose to go that way - BEFORE you come to a match.  All of what has been said is true, but finding the right caps to fit on the correct nipples to be used with or without wads in the chambers that will require cleaning and all the learning ... is both time-consuming AND (can be) expensive and should be done before you show up for a match.  If you come to one of our NCOWS matches here in Indiana, you'd be fine while learning - we have a small amount of shooters and have the TIME to help a newbie, BUT ... if you go to one of our SASS matches or one in some state where there are 75-100 shooters - well, you ... just might not feel very welcome after a short while, because of the time involved in the learning process.

But whatEVER you choose, have fun!