1894 Marlin

[Yakima Red]

While not a good rifle for the Darkside, I recently picked up a NIB .357 Marlin 1894. Manufactured in 1980! No goofy crossbolt.

The lever seems a little small for my hands. Is there still a large loop lever available for these?

Many thanks for any info,

I remain, Yakima Red

[fourfingersofdeath]

I have the same problem, so I just use two fingers inside the lever. I find with the little one outside of the lever loop, I tend to cycle the gun more efficiently anyway. A friend of mine does reallllllllllllllllllllllllllll good at cowboy shooting with his using Black Powder. Loads 17Gns fffg and a 158Gn boolit. They roar in his revolvers, but are a bit quieter in the Marlin. Nice find.

I have a newer one in 44Mag. I don't know what the drama is with safties. Every other gun has them, the military use them and manage to get theri guns into action pretty quickly. I didn't even notice mine until I had a group of beginners at the range the weekend before last. The guy that helped me put the guns on the table was an ex military guy who is getting into the shooting sports. He popped the safety on as soon as he picked up the rifle and carried it to the table for me. The first shooter was shown how to load, loaded up five rounds to get started with and the gun wouldn't work. After a few goes I realised that the gun had a safety and it had been applied. How embarrasing. 

[Mako]

Ho Yakima,
If you mean one like the photo below you can get one at:
http://www.wildwestguns.com/accessories.html

I have a question though, why did you state it is not a good rifle for the Darkside?  It is as authentic as most everything else we shoot and they are very easy to clean.  I don't use one but my daughters do and I have several friends that have them done up to the point you would drool.

Regards,
Mako

[Pettifogger]

If you are going to use the gun in competition the large loop lever is not the way to go.  They look neat, but are not built for speed.  The stock lever is much better for competition.  94 Marlins are great for BP!!!  They come apart easy and are very easy to clean.  They have generous clearances and make a fine BP gun.

[Yakima Red]

Thanky kindly for the info. Okay, my experience with the Marlin Lever Actions in this configuration. Thick, straight wall cases allow blowback fouling the chamber using Black Powder. Second, this has a microgroove barrel. Not the best with cast bullets, but they will work at the ranges we shoot at.
They do clean easy. Good thing.
I prefer bottle neck cartridges for my lever actions. This rifle was such a good buy I couldn't pass it up.

No drama with the cross bolt safety, it's just that cross bolt safeties do not replace gun safety. Know what I mean? Half cock used to be good enough. Them lawyers ya know.....

[Pettifogger]

With the .38 Special or .357 make sure the bullets are crimped well.  I shoot thousands of rounds of .38 with BP every year and blow back is not a problem if properly crimped.  As far as the Micro Groove barrels they were originally designed for lead bullets, the theory being the the multiple grooves wouldn't distort the bullet as much and would give better accuracy.  Micro Grooves got a back rap when people started trying to load them to higher velocities with soft bullets.  That combo doesn't mix well.  A lead bullet at cowboy velocities works perfectly and is just as accurate as ballard rifling.  If you want to avoid the BP mess use a standard hard cast, crayon lubed bullet over a case full of 777.  It has a little more omph than BP and will seal the case easier.

[Mako]

Thanky kindly for the info. Okay, my experience with the Marlin Lever Actions in this configuration. Thick, straight wall cases allow blowback fouling the chamber using Black Powder. Second, this has a microgroove barrel. Not the best with cast bullets, but they will work at the ranges we shoot at.
They do clean easy. Good thing.
I prefer bottle neck cartridges for my lever actions. This rifle was such a good buy I couldn't pass it up.

No drama with the cross bolt safety, it's just that cross bolt safeties do not replace gun safety. Know what I mean? Half cock used to be good enough. Them lawyers ya know.....

Yakima,
I can appreciate your answers but I have a couple of observations.

• I think Pettifogger has addressed the primary requirements for making a straight-walled case whether modern or pre-20th century perform.  I can only re-emphasize the need for good hard crimps.
• Marlin has successfully used microgrooved barrels on their very accurate .22s as early as 1950 and patented the rifling in 1953.  There have been issues (and in most cases unsubstantiated) raised over the years about the incompatibility of cast or lead bullets with their rifling, but even those who had issues with the micro-groove  barrels would agree there is NO issue with any caliber with the velocity below 1,600 fps., that's  above the allowable 1,400 fps velocity for CAS.  Marlin only changed the rifling in the Cowboy Rifles to silence the critics who were spreading misinformation they were getting from the "comic books."  Even the Cowboy Rifles are a mixed bag, not all of them are what we would call conventional rifling, only the .357, .38 spl. and .44 Mags are not micro-grooved.  I also know the other lever guns are a mixed bag.

I can speak from experience with "thick" straight walled cases.  I primarily shoot three 1866 rifles or carbines in .44 Spl., .44 Russian (with a carrier conversion)  and .38 Spl.  They have never had anything except Black Powder shot through them since I have purchased them.  I also have two 1873s one of them a Winchester  in .44WCF.  in which I shoot BP.  I can tell you from a lot of experience I get as much black on the front portion of my .44WCF cases as I do the other three calibers.  I primarily shoot .44 Spl and .44 Russian because they are closer to the .44 Henry rounds the original '66s were chambered in than anything else.

I do have personal experience with the Marlins in .38 spl.  A couple of my daughters shoot Marlin 1894 Cowboy Competition Carbines. Now they do have what Marlin calls Ballard Rifling, you and I commonly call it conventional rifling (I'm not quibbling about the difference between cut, button, rotary hammer forged or any other rifling process, I'm talking about groove depth and width).  They have shot a few matches with BP loads and the rifles performed flawlessly and were a breeze to clean, the bolt and lever come out so easily there isn't an excuse for not cleaning from the rear.

Oh, and the problem with the safety...What safety?  You mean that nice hole pre-drilled for the saddle ring attachment?  Problem solved and a nice little conversation piece for the girls.  The case hardened receivers and the leather laced rings draw admiring scrutiny at both the loading and unloading tables.  I'm not sure if the Uncle Mike's Rings are still available, but I believe Clyde Ludwig still sells the cross bolt filler for $10, Longhunter has them for $17.  You can make your own saddle ring very simply.  Just drill and tap the filler you get with an 8-40 hole and add the following from Numrich:

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Detail.aspx?pid=560100&filter=saddle+ring&catid=0]http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Detail.aspx?pid=560100&filter=saddle+ring&catid=0[/url]

a deal at $3.25...

There are people here who shoot .44 Russian Extra Long (.44mag) Dick Dastardly is one, and a whole lot of .45 Colt and a few .45 Cowboy special shooters as well.  You will find users  of .38 spl., .38 Short Colt and .357 Mag as well, if memory serves I believe those are all straight walled cases  . There are a lot of stories about what you CAN'T do with BP, it seems we're just too stubborn to listen.  So just ignore the "experts" that don't shoot the holy black, stuff that case full and then crimp it hard, you'll have a lot of fun with that .44 carbine.

Regards,
Mako

[kflach]

"crimped well"

I'm new to the reloading thing - less than a year experience. I know I crimp them, but "well" is a subjective term. What do I specifically need to look for to tell me if I'm crimping them "well?"

I use Goex fffg or Diamondback fffg.

[Jefro]

While not a good rifle for the Darkside, I recently picked up a NIB .357 Marlin 1894. Manufactured in 1980! No goofy crossbolt.

The lever seems a little small for my hands. Is there still a large loop lever available for these?

Many thanks for any info,

I remain, Yakima Red

I shoot a couple of Marlins with the 38 Snakebite and real BP, no problem at all. As for the lever, try it for a while with just between  the first and second knuckle of the three fingers in the lever, works much faster......even better with a lever wrap to protect the knuckles. Good Luck.


Jefro

[Mako]

"crimped well"

I'm new to the reloading thing - less than a year experience. I know I crimp them, but "well" is a subjective term. What do I specifically need to look for to tell me if I'm crimping them "well?"

I use Goex fffg or Diamondback fffg.

Kflach, Look below:
The first is a series of .44 Spl crimps, note the middle three are light crimps and they get heavier as they approach the outside.

On the second image you see what I call a "heavy crimp."  I consider this an ideal crimp for BP loads.

~Mako

[Blackpowder Burn]

Mako,

I'm not trying to argue here, just trying to get my feeble mind wrapped around the BP cartridge crimp issue.  I understand everyone recommends a good, strong crimp with ammunition used in revolvers and lever action rifles.  Bullet jump, magazine spring pressure, etc. mandate that.  But part of the explanation that is given also has to do with powder ignition, consistent combustion pressures, etc.  All of which makes sense.

However, when shooting black in single shot rifles, many folks don't crimp at all.  I even see references to a lot of folks breech seating a bullet, then inserting the cartridge case containing the powder.

These two practices seem contradictory from the standpoint of improving combustion efficiency and consistency with a crimp.  Can you help me understand?

[Noz]

considerable difference in the "lock up" between single shot and lever guns. Many of these single shot shooters shoot once fired unsized shells to keep the blowbak down.
I shot a Marlin 1894 FG(41 mag) for a while with black. I crimped hard enough that the edged of the case was imbedded in the bullet. No blow back. I went to an 1866 in 44-40 for the purpose of getting a bullet with enough lube to not require "between stages" cleaning.  Big Lubes solved that problem.

[kflach]

Mako,

Thanks. Those pictures were worth a thousand words!

[Mako]

Howdy Ag,
It seems I just need to let Noz answer the questions.  I believe I agree with almost everything I have ever seen him post.   His answers are succinct and to the point.

To date when I post on this forum I am almost always talking about typical CAS calibers, cartridges or Cap and Ball.   I'll leave BPCR, Billy Dixon and other large BP cartridge topics to those with more experience with the bigger BP cartridges.  Yakima's concern was blowback from straight thick walled modern brass, which is a valid concern.  BP doesn't create the quick pressure spike that causes the brass to obturate against the chamber walls as smokeless powder does.  We do get expansion, but not as much.  The crimping affects the time component of the process and holds a smaller pressure area a bit longer allowing the pressure build more quickly.

I used to think that the slight bottleneck on the WCF cartridges was almost the exclusive reason they had minimal blowback.  I believe that is a component, but we also know that the brass is thinner on the necks of those cases which also helps in the obturation and sealing.  The pressure in a BP cartridge is still building as it hits the throat in a chamber and enters the bore, if we have a fully sized case (which we pretty much always do for CAS reloading) then there is ample room at the mouth for gases to flow back down the sides of the case unless the case has had time to obturate and seal at the mouth.  Resizing compounds the problem.  Almost all dies size up to the web at the base and actually undersize the case.  Take a factory round and measure it sometime and compare it to your reloaded ammunition.  Heavy crimps just give a little more time for the pressure to build.

With the long range crowd they pretty much do as Noz described.  I may use a slight taper crimp to remove the mouth expansion on .45-70 cartridges, but if I ever get really serious about BPCR then I'll probably never resize any competition loads.  Those folks work on getting consistent neck pressure, load compression and almost perfect offset of the ogive from the rifling lands to achieve consistent shot to shot pressures.  The bullet entering the rifling creates the most resistance on each shot and that is where the pressure climbs the fastest.  If you can hit that constant sweet spot on the curve from ogive entry to base fully engaged in the bore from shot to shot then you have the makings of a very consistent and accurate load.

So, in short, crimps in our context need to be tight to help build pressure quickly to allow our cases to temporarily resize themselves to achieve what we have undone by resizing.  I used to use unmodified lee factory crimp dies, but they have a sizing ring in them which exacerbates the problem.  They actually resize the loaded round as the bullet is crimped.  This is a great thing for .38 Super loads, but bad news for my BP loads.  I opened up the ring on three of my Factory Crimp Dies to just hit any hickies or bulges I might get from old brass, I still use unmodified FC dies for most smokeless pistol rounds.  My Lee FCD .44WCF die is different, it has a collet system as the Lee rifle FCD sets do.  I really like the way it crimps and prevents collapsing shoulders.

Later,
Mako 

[Blackpowder Burn]

Mako,

Thanks, that makes sense.  I have noticed my 45LC BP ammo is significantly dirtier in my rifle than is my 44WCF ammo, and this would account for that.  Because of that, I have to clean my 45LC rifle daily, whereas I can shoot my 44WCF almost indefinitely with no problems.  I'll try a tighter crimp on the 45 ammo and see what happens.  I would like to use that rifle more.

I've recently changed to Lee factory crimp dies on my 38-55 and 45-70, but haven't had a chance to take the rifles to the range yet.  Based on your comments, I'm expecting good things.

Thanks again for helping me understand.  I try to learn a little something every day.

[Pettifogger]

Handgun ammo and the stuff we shoot for CAS is a different animal that the long range single shots.  In addition to what others have posted there are other things that differentiate long range target shooting.  They leave the cases un-crimped because they don't want to damage the bullet.  Makes no difference at 10 or 20 yards but makes a lot of difference at 1000+.  Also, many long range shooters seat the bullets long so they are impressed into the rifling when the action is closed.  This has the same effect as a crimp on a pistol round.  They also use blow tubes between shots to keep the fouling soft.  Can't do that firing a quite string of ten out of your lever action.