wads or no wads?

[will52100]

Just got done loading some 45 colts.  My normal load for the last 4-5 years is 38 grains of 3F Graf's with a 250 grain PRS bullet with a veggi fiber over powder wad.  I shoot this primarily in my Henry, but do ocasionaly use them for pistols.

What's everybody's opion?  Do the wads do anygood or are they a waste of time?  I have shot my henry out to 200 meters with excellent accuracy.

Just wondering what others are doing.

Thanks

[Pettifogger]

One vote for waste of time in your .45 Colts.  Might be a different answer for 1,000 yard precision shooting.

[Dick Dastardly]

The flat base of the PRS Big Lube®LLC bullet is robust enough to handle the force and flame of the Holy Black in a 45 Colt case.  The card wad is only taking up powder room.

Now, in the 45-70 case, it's a different matter.  I've been experimenting with several Big Lube®LLC 45 pistol bullets in the 45-70 with the intent of developing a Plainsman round that won't cause you to be able to clap with your shoulder blades.  Both the PRS and DD/PUK/ROA-II designs have shown promise.  I'm loading them with 3.1cc of black powder under a card wad followed by a .410 fiber wad to bring the load column height up for a nice crimp.  Like I said, they show promise.

DD-DLoS

[Noz]

Not only a waste of time in a cartridge, the wads can cause poor accuracy. The wad can stick to the base of the bullet and cause some real interesting accuracy problems.

[will52100]

Thanks, think I'm going to have to load some both ways and see how my henry likes it.  I haven't been haveing problems, but was courius how others were doing it.  If I can't find a differance it'd be one less expense.

[Ranch 13]

Thanks, think I'm going to have to load some both ways and see how my henry likes it.  I haven't been haveing problems, but was courius how others were doing it.  If I can't find a differance it'd be one less expense.

There ya go, that way you'll find the answer to what you and your guns can live with.
Myself I've always loaded a card wad under the bullet when loading bp in cartridges, and that's been a long long time.... I've even been known to fill the hollowbases in bullets with lube

[Montana Slim]

For me..
Pistol cartridges 44-40, 44 Russian. 38 Colt 38 S&W - No Wad.
Rifle Cartridges: 45-70 - Yes Wad (.060 veggie for me)

Regards,
Slim

[john boy]

Do the wads do anygood or are they a waste of time?  I have shot my henry out to 200 meters with excellent accuracy.

Will, the original 45 Colt's had no wads.  So why try to reinvent wheel?
As for accuracy using 45's without wads, here's 2 Rams at 500 meters that went down successively using a '60 Henry ...


The rest of the bank went down too, but not in a row.  John Kort, w44wcf, was my spotter and camera man

[Montana Slim]

Will, the original 45 Colt's had no wads.  So why try to reinvent wheel?

Actually, a lot of period cartridges (various caliber pistol/rifle cartridges) DID contain wads....sometimes a deep stack of thin paper (I assume scrap dunnage).

The practice varied between manufacturers and even lot-to-lot. I believe it had as much to do with economics as anything else...saving gunpowder. This info was gleaned from past years spent on BPCR forum and others where cartridge collectors had sacrificed some of thier original rounds...so, don't ask for my published source for that info.

Regards,
Slim

[litl rooster]

wads of cash good

[Ranch 13]

 Actually there are some 45 colt rounds been broke down and there was a wad under the bullet....
Winchester sold a wad cutter with their reloading tool, or if you prefered sold pasteboard wads at 2$ per 1000...... in 1878...

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I did some fairly extensive tests a number of years ago when I made the change over to Big Lube bullets. Prior to that, I had been loading my BP cartridges with pan lubed hardcast Smokeless bullets. Often with a lube wad inside.

My tests were with the Mav-Dutchman bullet in 44-40 loads, but I suspect the result would be the same with 45 Colt. I loaded up a box of rounds with a thin cardwad between the powder and bullet, and another box with no wad. I will add that I cast my Mav-Dutchmans from dead soft, pure lead, with no tin or antimony, so if there is going to be any problem with deformation of the bullet base, it would have shown up.

I fired some groups from a bench at 50 yards. With my miserable eyesight and open sights, I could determine no significant difference in the size of the groups with a wad or without a wad. Perhaps with better eyesight and out to 100 yards I would have found a difference. But at 50 yards there was no difference. So I stopped using wads and have not used them since.

Same thing with my 45 Colt and 45 Schofield loads, which are only shot out of revolvers. Never bothered to add a card wad between the powder and the bullet. Does not seem to affect anything.

My 45-70 loads for my Sharps are a different story, I do put a .030 cardwad between the powder and the bullet for them.

The comment about wads glued to bullets is true. However I experienced that with soft, gooey lube wads, not card wads. When I was pan lubing, at first I put a card wad against the powder, then a lube wad, then the bullet. Accuracy was terrible. I found out that the soft lube wads were getting glued to the base of the bullet, and making them unstable. Accuracy was terrible. I solved the problem by adding another wad, between the lube cookie and the bullet, but that meant I was stuffing in a card wad, a cookie, and another card wad. Way too much work. That's when I discovered Big Lube bullets. Never added another wad again.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Actually there are some 45 colt rounds been broke down and there was a wad under the bullet....
Winchester sold a wad cutter with their reloading tool, or if you prefered sold pasteboard wads at 2$ per 1000...... in 1878...

Yes, it is true that sometimes manufacturers added a card wad between powder and bullet in the 19th Century. But since there was no such thing as a rifle chambered for 45 Colt back then, I guess they were not able to determine if it helped with rifle accuracy or not, were they?

As I stated earlier, for general CAS use, a wad between powder and bullet is unnecessary. Long range shooting may be a different story.

[john boy]

Long range shooting may be a different story.

Driftwood, not really ... No wads and 2 in a row in a '60 Henry. The rest of the 500 meter Ram bank went down also, but not consecutively

[Dick Dastardly]

Ho the fire,

I've found that my 45-70 likes a card wad between the bullet and the powder.  I'm talkin a simple Circle Fly .06" card wad here.  My 38-55 seems ambivalent.  Couldn't tell you why.  I've been getting some pretty small groups with my 45-70 roller.  Of course it could be that it now has a Malcolm style scope on it.  My 38-55 seems to hold around an inch and a half at 100 yards no matter what I do to it.  Could be that my cataracts are fuzzing things up some.

But, the point is, each gun will have it's preferences as to wads, or no wads.  You have to shoot 'em, wring 'em out and then shoot 'em some more before you start to learn their true potential.

Since our new 200 meter range is finally open I intend to do a lot of shooting there.  It's only 10 minutes from my house and I'm now a NRA RSO so I'll have almost any day access.  Yup, there's goin' to be some learnin' goin' on here.

FWIW, my B92 44 Magnum holds about 2" 100 yard groups and I can't get it any finer than that with the ghost ring sights.  I suspect that, given a glass sight, it'd do some better.  Never a card wad in that gun tho.

DD-DLoS

[Yakima Red]

I use wads. 

[Fairshake]

Will, You never stated what you are using the loads for. Anything that is closer than 100 yards is a big waste of time. You also stated that you are not having any problems with your loads for 4-5 years. If I may ask why are you ready to rock the boat? On long range shooting with the big bores a lot of people are using the LPDE wads.

[Paladin UK]

Fer JB
Thars sometin that aint quite right with them 2  piccies... ( specially the folds in the jackets).. 

Paladin (Whats gotta know  ) UK

[will52100]

I'm shooting at cowbow distance mostly, ocasionaly I shoot out to 200 meters, but haven't had time to give it a work out lately.  I've recovered a lot of rounds, never found one with the fiber wad still on the bullet though.  Haven't had time to do a side by side comparison yet eigther.  Been as buisy as a bever on chrystal meth.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

The wads that I had trouble with were soft, gooey lube cookies. They were getting glued to the base of bullets and causing the bullets to be unstable. Not card wads. In fact, I found that by separating the lube cookie from the bullet with a card wad, the accuracy problem went away because the soft lube cookie was no longer in contact with the bullet. But adding a lube cookie, plus two card wads, one on each side of the lube cookie, was just way too much work than I wanted to do.

With Big Lube bullets I find no need for any wads of any sort.

In point of fact, I never actually found the lube cookie glued to the bullet base on recovered bullets, but I did find lube cookies glued to my paper targets out at 50 yards. My supposition is that the spinning action of the bullet eventually spun the cookie off the bullet and it followed along behind, smacking into the target. By the time the cookie spun off though, the damage had been done and the bullets were not flying true anymore. Once I interspaced a card wad between the bullet and the lube, the accuracy problem went away, so it was a fair supposition that the instability of the bullets went away.

I do use a .030 card wad in my 45-70 loads for my Sharps at long range. I do not use Big Lube bullets in the Sharps, I am using a traditional 405 grain bullet. I use a blow tube between shots to keep the fouling soft.