Old West bad guys and bad guys

[Doc Cuervo]

Kinda like the whole Viet Nam Shoutheast Asia thing.

[Dead I]

I was just on a vacation in central Tejas.

People down there still speak of "The War of the Northern Agression".

Like Voltaire (I think) once said, 'History books are written by the winners" Had the South been victorious, our history books would read much differently ....

There is an interesting book entitled "If the South had Won the Civil War"   It's not new, but I think it's premise is still valid.  It states that slavery would have ended by itself by the 1880's and that the nation would have eventually re-united do to all of the challenges of the 20th Century w/t wars with Germans and Japanese.  What many do not know is that there was a very active abolitionist movement in the South that ended in the 40's or 50's and most likely with "Uncle Tom's Cabin".   

[GunClick Rick]

Anyone who thinks either this side or that side was the good guy in that war of many names sure as hell ain't studied it.  The time when the US almost had two dictators, funny they served at the same time and were born less than a 100 miles apart. 


Sort of like now,Bill take over i have to go somewhere.Ok Baroke,next question please~~

[Dead I]

Well I still use the term,"war of northern aggression"' because that's what it was. I also get rid of five dollar bills and lincoln pennies as soon as I get them, because he was a tyrant and war criminal.

Was Abe as bad as Henry Wirtz?

[MJN77]

Was Abe as bad as Henry Wirtz?

Wirtz was a scapegoat. Late in the war, the south couldn't even supply it's own armies with what they needed, let alone northern prisoners. He just didn't have the food/ medicines/ blankets to give them. Don't know if he cared or not, but he did plead with confederate authorities, trying to get more food for the prisoners. He was told to "make due". There were many a  southern prisoner that fared just as bad as those union fellows. Read about Elmira prison in NY. 3000 southern soldiers died there from malnutrition/ exposure/ disease. Read about Camp Douglas in IL. About 4500 southerners died there from starvation/ exposure/ disease. The union armies were always well supplied compared the southern armies. This is especially true later in the war. Most of the time they had a surplus of goods. Yet you had prisoners dying of the exact same things on both sides of the Mason-Dixon. Odd. I consider myself a southerner but like a lot fellows I'm not still "fighting the war". I don't know if he was a "good" man or not, but Wirtz wasn't the "devil" he was claimed to be.

[Delmonico]

Anyone who thinks either this side or that side was the good guy in that war of many names sure as hell ain't studied it.  The time when the US almost had two dictators, funny they served at the same time and were born less than a 100 miles apart. 

As I said before.

[Stillwater]

Well I still use the term,"war of northern aggression"' because that's what it was. I also get rid of five dollar bills and lincoln pennies as soon as I get them, because he was a tyrant and war criminal.

Are you saying the shelling of Fort Sumpter, the first act of hostilities of the Civil War, was an example of "Northern Aggression?"

Bill

[Dead I]

Wirtz was a scapegoat. Late in the war, the south couldn't even supply it's own armies with what they needed, let alone northern prisoners. He just didn't have the food/ medicines/ blankets to give them. Don't know if he cared or not, but he did plead with confederate authorities, trying to get more food for the prisoners. He was told to "make due". There were many a  southern prisoner that fared just as bad as those union fellows. Read about Elmira prison in NY. 3000 southern soldiers died there from malnutrition/ exposure/ disease. Read about Camp Douglas in IL. About 4500 southerners died there from starvation/ exposure/ disease. The union armies were always well supplied compared the southern armies. This is especially true later in the war. Most of the time they had a surplus of goods. Yet you had prisoners dying of the exact same things on both sides of the Mason-Dixon. Odd. I consider myself a southerner but like a lot fellows I'm not still "fighting the war". I don't know if he was a "good" man or not, but Wirtz wasn't the "devil" he was claimed to be.

Doesn't hold water.  Wirtz had enough energy and materials to build another fencwall of logs outside of the first one and then he started a third.  He wanted to keep prisoners in so they'd die of starvation and dispair.  Wirtz had the ability and men to make the interior of Andersonville a much better place than it was.  He could have taken all of that manpower and longs to build those extra walls.

[Dead I]

Conditions in Union prisons were never as bad as they were in the South.  Andersonville was just one, Belle Island was another, but Andersonville took the cake in horrible places to be.  During the worst days  in Andersonville a hundred men died a day.  Eventually 13,000 plus perished.  In addition prisoners who were eventually released kept dieing and their deaths have not been added to the total of dead in Andersonville.

Yes, Southerners have been trying to removed blame from Wirtz and Winder since the end of the War.  I've been to Andersonville nearly a dozen times.  I was stationed nearby.  Wirtz could have moved the Confederate's came and placed it along another stream so at least the water would have been better when it ran through the camp.  He didn't care, you see.  To Wirtz the only good Yankee was a dead Yankee.   

Sure Wirtz was in pain.  He probably was a little off his rocker, but that's an excuse.  He got exactly what he deserved.

[MJN77]

Conditions in Union prisons were never as bad as they were in the South.   

This is my point, they weren't. Yet you had southern soldiers dying from starvation and exposure too.

[MJN77]

He didn't care, you see.  To Wirtz the only good Yankee was a dead Yankee.   

Did you know this man personally?

[MJN77]

Doesn't hold water.  Wirtz had enough energy and materials to build another fencwall of logs outside of the first one and then he started a third.  He wanted to keep prisoners in so they'd die of starvation and dispair.  Wirtz had the ability and men to make the interior of Andersonville a much better place than it was.  He could have taken all of that manpower and longs to build those extra walls.

How do facts not hold water? Look up what I posted. The information is there. Research the union prisons a little bit and you won't find conditions all that different.
You say he wanted to keep prisoners in to starve them....you know it was a prison, right? Doesn't make much sense to NOT keep them in does it? He kept building palisades because the confederate government kept sending him prisoners, so he had to expand the grounds. Andersonville was supposed to be a temporary holding facility, pending exchanges with the north.
How could Wirtz make Andersonville " a much better place" exactly? He was there to run a prison. The prison became way overcrowded after Grant stopped prisoner exchange. He received less and less food, medicines, and material to run the prison. Conditions got worse and worse. Pretty simple if you think about it.
Wirtz was only a captain. He wasn't God. He had to work with what his superiors gave him. Wirtz was a scapegoat because Wirtz was the face of Andersonville. I say again, the confederate government couldn't even feed it's own soldiers.
One last thing, if Wirtz was such a monster for not giving prisoners food he did not have to give them, what about the southern prisoners in northern prisons that starved to death, or died from cold because they had no blankets? Surely the well supplied union army had rations and blankets to give them. Were the union prison commanders also monsters? I never said Wirtz was a great guy. Maybe he was a bastard, I don't know I wasn't there. I can, however research the subject and find the information about it.

[Delmonico]

OK, since it seems once again that there is a general lack of knowledge showing here, let me point something out.  

Neither side had planned on having any POW's for very long, parol and exchange would take care of that, and did early on.  Later that system broke down for several reasons, (fault of both sides, I won't tell you why, you can go research it yourselves.)  This caused an over-loading of the POW camps on both sides and caused a lot of needless suffering.  

So now carry one if you wish.  Would like to see some documentation to back up some of these statements.  And as I've said a couple times if you want to lay the blame for what happened on one side or the other, you just make me assume more and more there has not been much research done here.

[Shotgun Franklin]

It would appear that despite the protest, the War hasn't quite been laid to rest up North either.

[Stillwater]

Wirtz was a scapegoat.

Not hardly...!

I consider myself a southerner but like a lot fellows I'm not still "fighting the war".

Yes you are, very subtly, but you still are.

I don't know if he was a "good" man or not, but Wirtz wasn't the "devil" he was claimed to be.

You were personally acquainted with him, right?

I would like to have attended Wirtz's last party, his NECK TIE PARTY...

Bill

[Stillwater]

It would appear that despite the protest, the War hasn't quite been laid to rest up North either.

And it won't be for the next hundred years...

However, the war of Northern Aggression was the NORTH's fault and history makes this very clear... If the NORTH had not of started the war by "bombarding Fort Sumpter", there wouldn't have been a Civil War...! RIGHT?

Bill

[MJN77]

Lots of hostility here, and you accuse ME of fighting the war. No discussion, no evidence to prove me wrong, just hostility. Funny. All I can say is look up what I have posted. Read about the northern prisons. You will be suprised I am sure. Have a Merry Christmas everyone.

[Stillwater]

Lots of hostility here, and you accuse ME of fighting the war. No discussion, just hostility. Funny. All I can say is look up what I have posted. Read about the northern prisons. You will be suprised I am sure. Have a Merry Christmas everyone.

Quiet to the contrary, no one is being hostile to you. You're losing the arguement and taking dishonest refuge by attacking your opposition...

I have read a lot about Confederate prisoners during the Civil War. Do you think you're the only one who can read?

Where do you think the "GALVANIZED YANKEE'S" came from.

[Delmonico]

All I see here is a couple of guys wanting to refight a war that both caused.  So have fun, I can see there is a lot of what happened that neither of you have much knowledge of. 

[MJN77]

Quiet to the contrary, no one is being hostile to you. You're losing the arguement and taking dishonest refuge by attacking your opposition...

I have read a lot about Confederate prisoners during the Civil War. Do you think you're the only one who can read?

Where do you think the "GALVANIZED YANKEE'S" came from.

No hostility? Your sarcasm is friendly then? How have I attacked anyone? Other than the hostile sarcasm, what opposition?
I'm not losing the arguement. Hell, I didn't even know there was an arguement. I have presented the facts as I have read them over many years. Instead of people continuing the conversation, I am met with sarcasm. Do you wish to add to the subject?