Goex (Real Black Powder) I am not impressed...

[ZVP]

 I have been involved in Cap and Ball shooting for around a year now and finally got hold of a Pound of Goex B/P. Prior to this I had only been able to locate Substitute Black Powder.
I had been anxiouslly awaiting experiencing the wonders of "real" Black Powder and frankilly Pyrodex outshines it. ' I was looking for consistancy which real B/P was supposed to give and it does.
I was looking for the explosive power effects of real Black Powder but got let down because in my revolvers it seems like Triple 7 is the power powder and Pyrodex is consistant and mid powered and "real" Goex B/P comes in last in the power catagory.
I load 30 and 35 grains in my '58 remington Sherrif and standard barrel length '58. Comparitively the  powders shot the same over and over again. I used several cans of Pyrodex, one can of Triple 7,and had only one can of Goex for comparisons.
Shooting a cylinder of each, cleaning and then shooting the other  the preformances stayed consistant and POI remained consistant.
I loaded my Brass Framed .44 Piettia Colt with 22 grain loads (to preserve the brass frame) and preformances at the 22 grain level were the same order.
Clean-up wise, real Black Powder is not bad to clean. Pyrodex is easiest (just water).With both Pyrodex and real Black Powder Windex and water worked best.
I think that though 'real" Black powder is cool, the benifits of the new powder compounds outweigh the origonal.
  Barrel clean-up after using Wonder wads as opposed to Crisco makes the diferences between real B/P and the new substitute compounds show even more.  The flakes left in the Forcing Cone after Crisco are quite large and always there but when Wonder Wads are used, the real Black powder still fowls more but the Substitutes don't leave much and don't leave flakes in the fowling.
Has anyone else had similar results with Goex?
I think I am a convert. Cap and Ball, Pyrodex and Wonder Wads!
ZVP

[Ranch 13]

Might shoulda stuck with the glock 9mm

[litl rooster]

Might shoulda stuck with the glock 9mm

you bad

[Noz]

Chocolate and vanilla?

Not really. Black powder flashes brighter. It's smoke smells better. It is much more forgiving in the cleaning department(you can be a bit more lax in cleaning than with the subs). It seems to have a longer power stroke which translates to more pleasant to shoot. It is generally much cheaper especially if you can organize a group buy.

777 was designed to shoot in in-line muzzleloaders and as such is recognized as being in the vicinity of 15+% hotter than real black.

Pyrodex is an acceptable substitute for cap and ball shooting and it also is recognized as being somewhat hotter than real black.

It looks like what you have done is have a pleasant afternoon with your guns while you are re-inventing the wheel.

Most people that use a substitute do so because of availability rather than performance.

If you so desire you can go to durofelt.com and order enough felt to keep you shooting for a while for $15. A $6 set of hollow punches from Harbor Freight will allow you to punch enough wads in a couple of hours to last. An 11mm punch works best for my 44s. Soak them in melted bullet lube. I use Dan Dastardly's Pearl Lube which is 1 part Soy Wax(candle store) 1 part toilet bowl ring and 1/2 part vegetable shortening.

I use the Pearl Lube on bullets for the 44/40, wad dipping and I also use it to lube the arbors on my 1860 armys.

[Jefro]

Chocolate and vanilla?

Not really. Black powder flashes brighter. It's smoke smells better. It is much more forgiving in the cleaning department(you can be a bit more lax in cleaning than with the subs). It seems to have a longer power stroke which translates to more pleasant to shoot. It is generally much cheaper especially if you can organize a group buy.

I agree, I prefer Real BP, more pleasant to shoot with fire and smoke . If you want a little more zip give Swiss a try. I prefer Schuetzen, burns cleaner than Goex for the same price. The new formula is spose to be more in line with Swiss. Group buy or 25 lb mininum is the way to go, I save a bunch by shooting real BP. Good Luck

Jefro

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I bought my first pound of Goex back in 1968 and used it in my brass framed 44 caliber 'Navy' back then. Have used Goex on and off ever since.

Frankly, I don't shoot real Black Powder for flames or any 'explosive' effects. I simply like shooting real BP, and have always been able to get my hands on it.

You are correct that 777 is more powerful than real Black Powder. About 15%. So what? Do you really need an 'explosive' load?

On the subject of 'explosive' power, you are never going to be knocked backwards out of your socks by 30 or 35 grains in a C&B revolver behind a 44 cal ball. In fact, a load like that usually does not recoil much more than a Smokeless 38. That is because the round ball weighs no more than a typical 158 grain 38 Sp Semi-Wadcutter. On top of that, a ball held in place by a thin band across the ball by friction will never achieve the same amount of pressure as a heavier bullet mechanically crimped in place in a cartridge. If you want to experience recoil and boom, try that same 35 grains of powder behind a 250 grain bullet in a 45 Colt cartridge. There is quite a difference. It is all in the amount of pressure built up before the projectile starts moving.

And a cartridge cylinder is easier to clean than a C&B cylinder. The hole is bored through. Ya just have to run your bore brush and your favorite BP solvent through the chamber, not like a C&B cylinder with different diameters and nipples on the end.

You are also correct that many times there will be no noticeable difference between slightly different loads of real Black Powder. Again, so what?

The real advantage of 777 as well as APP over Pyrodex is that when used in conjunction with a cartridge, both real Black Powder and Pyrodex require a Black Powder compatible bullet lube. APP and 777 do not, they can be used with Smokeless bullets lubed with regular Smokeless lubes. Of course, there is always the availability issue too. Subs are easier to find in many locations, because of storage regulations.

Over the years, I have tried a bunch of different brands of Black Powder. My current favorite is Schuetzen. Schuetzen uses a superior type of charcoal, the same type that Swiss uses. This means that Scuetzen burns cleaner than Goex. It really is a superior powder for about the same money. In this cowboy's humble opinion, although Swiss is the best Black Powder made, it is too expensive for CAS and the amount used up in a typical match.

[Cuts Crooked]

........and you will note that none of the long range shooting champions use subs......not even when they were permitted.

[Percussion Pete]

I'm not sure who told you Goex has more power than Pyrodex? Forget 777. It's not even black powder. I put it in the same class as Blackhorn 209.

Real BP is pleasant to shoot. Soft recoil, good smell, and real white smoke. It's what our guns should be shooting.

If you want a real BP with power almost equal to 777 and very consistent and easier to clean up? I have 5 lbs of Swiss 2F i'll sell you.

[ZVP]

 Woops, I didn
t mean to step on any toes there! Just a simple observation about powders. Yea I know 30 or 35 grains is a nice target load and probablly even good enough for "Social Work".
The availability of "real"
Black powder is sorta slim around here and I grabbed the only can of Goex that Bass Pros had just to try it out. In the old days I am sure they developed Powder Testers for a reason. You could get a pretty variable mix of chemicals and get some low power preformance as I have. Maybe another brand of powder would give better preformance? I guess since Bass Pro's buys in such bulk, that the can I bought could maybe be old or even from a lot which waqsn't up to full snuff? It's really hard finding any of the real stuff but there are usually a number of substitutes available at Gun Shops. One other thing is the Obama Dry Spell that we all went thru hasn't helped in having a variety of powders to choose from. Heck for weeks there was NO powder here in my part of California to be had, then we went through a month when you couldn't find Caps! Luckilly I was a Pound ahead and had several hundred Caps to carry me over.
I'm sorry that in my post, I may have portrayed it as thyough I was comparing B/P and Smokeless though I don't know where that idea came from? I shoot the B/P for fun and if I waqnt preformance I just stoke my Vaquero up with some hot JHP 357's. Black Powder is fun and suprisinglly accurate! My '58's sure shoot accuratelly at 21 ft and if that's the modern average gunfight distance I sure would depend on getting good hits from either revolver. A '44 ball with 35 grains of anything is not a load to be sneezed at!
Fire and smoke were mentioned and that is one thing even the substitutes do pretty well. I have never had a shortage of smoke especally when I use a little Crisco atop the balls! The fireball with substitutes is still pretty large andthe side blast is even present. I have no complaints about that!
A good point about recoil and the purchase that a round ball has inside the barrel and cylinder. Felt recoil is definatelly less even with large calibers. amore of a plesant push than a kick. My first shots with B/P were with a .36 London Colt and a fella couldn't ask for a more plesant load than 22g of B/P in that revolver! I can see why gunfighters chose that model it is very quick back on target and you don't get any of that big smokless magnum shreak when it goes off, just a plesant big boom!
I really have to shoot some of the other brands of B/P if there is such a difference between brands.
ZVP

[Percussion Pete]

I think you'll find most of have to buy BP online. We get hit with the hazard fees, but if we buy in bulk it's not charged. I bought the Swiss from Buffalo Arms.

btw  I will sell you some Swiss. (shhhhh don't tell anybody)

[Noz]

 http://www.powderinc.com/ sells on line and their prices include the HAZMAT.

[Percussion Pete]

http://www.powderinc.com/ sells on line and their prices include the HAZMAT.

If you buy at least 25 lbs. I believe they all do that.

[Ranch 13]

If you buy at least 25 lbs. I believe they all do that.

No all their prices quotes from 5-50lb's includes shipping and hazmat.

Grafs sells Schuetzen under their own level. Their prices include shipping but not hazmat.

[ZVP]

 I checked out their site and prices (believe it or not) for Goex are nearly a dollar cheaper per pound than Bass Pro's and Bass Pro's dosen't give a discount for bulk purchases! I am suprised that anyone sells on line considering the crazy fees and restrictions for shipping and handling.
Looking back on all the good information and comments given here,I think I should try several brands of "real" Black Powder before making a firm commitment to the substitutes. I  suppose keeping a can of 'real" Black powder and just plinking with substitutes would be the way to go...
Triple 7 being mainly a rifle powder may be best overlooked because of the 15% power increase. I have used it and loaded allowing for a calculated reduction, it still feels more powerfull with sharper recoil than Pyrodex loaded at the same level. Too bad because accuracy was excellent with Triple 7! I will refrain from using it nevertheless because i am new to Cap and Ball shooting and do not want to harm my revolvers.
Thanks again for all the good tips and information!
ZVP

[Ranch 13]

 triple 7 , app and the rest of that bunch are nothing more than a version of smokeless powder with fake smoke added.
Need more "power" from black go down and f size and put a full charge in the cylinder..

[Percussion Pete]

777 is more powerful than Pyrodex, and Pyrodex is more powerful than real black powder.

Swiss is real premium black powder than is almost as powerful as 777.

[Crow Choker]

It's understandable if black powder is hard to find in the area you reside. I've got two sources within 50-90 miles I can get powder and caps, so feel fortunate. Can even buy 'real black' cheaper than Walmart and several sport type businesses sell the 'subs' for. For the most part, the gun shops I go to always have some in stock, although I 'inventoried' enough during the 'drought', I was never at want. Then you have available the on-line's such as Powder, Inc and others to buy a large quanity by yourself or with others. I've tried some of the 'subs' a little bit from some I inherited from a shootin' pard. For shootin close range, the 'pricey' black powders arenot needed, although some may shoot a little cleaner. As for power, to punch a hole in  paper or to 'clang' some steel, you don't need 'super-magnum' loads, but the 'poof-ting' ones aren't any fun either. My thoughts on the 'subs' come from the late-great shooter and writer Jeff Cooper, "It's an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem".

[Fox Creek Kid]

``Shock & awe`` aside I think you`ll find that 99..99% of the shooters who use REAL BP do it because they want to recreate an historical moment. They love the history. I know I do.    

FWIW, 777 was developed for In Line muzzleloaders that are all the rage. In other words, for middle aged fat guys who are too lazy to crawl or get a little closer to kill a deer with BP & a round ball.  

[ZVP]

 I can understand and sympathize with people wanting to recreate a historical moment!
Due to this thread I am now thinking along those lines myself.
Due to the fact that "real" Black Powder is so hard to get in my locale I have to shoot more substitutes than real B/P but I think my powder of choice now is "real" Black Powder!
The 5 to 15% necissity for reduced loads pretty much tells the story on the relationship between the Substitutes and smokeless powder.
Thanks to all for helping me understand the needs of Black Powder Shooters!
ZVP

[Bryan Austin]

I think I am a convert. Cap and Ball, Pyrodex and Wonder Wads!
ZVP

Whatever floats your boat!

I shoot Uberti revolvers because I like them. I use big lig bullets because I like them. I use real BP because I like it. I shoot an Uberti Winchester 73 because I like it. I drive a 1984 Jeep CJ7 because I like it. I fly old airplanes because I like them.

I like what I like, you do the same ya hear?