Tintypes of the Regulators

[Dead I]

Del-Co: I'm a Old West freak, and as such have been all over the West and the South and Mid-West searching out famious sites, and viewing museums.  I was raised just outside of Dodge City and met men who knew Bat Masterson and Luke Short.  I'd pick out a person and study them.  I spent fifteen years on George Custer.  I decided to "do" Billy the Kid and therefore, drove to Lincoln viewed the museums, and studied the famous Upham picture of the Kid.

One day I walked into a little museum in Central Oregon.  There was a display of tintypes. I picked up one and after a bit discovered that it was of Billy the Kid.  I also found pictures of Sallie Chisum and several Regulators.  I found Tom Folliard and Alex McSween almost at once.  Then I dug through the little shop and found about 70 more.

After almost two years of searching I found Sallie Chisum's family here in Oregon and I drove out to their ranch.  They had hundreds of Chisum pictures, some I have posted here.  They recall my collection and knew how and when it was sold.  They had been forgotten and sold in a yard sale.  I just happen to find and recognize them.  Unbelievable; true, but fact nevertheless.

[Delmonico]

So in other words no proof.  I doubt I'm the only one who doubts they are what they are.

[Dead I]

So in other words no proof.  I doubt I'm the only one who doubts they are what they are.

No, you are not alone.  It appears to me that people what written proof that my pictures are real, but what about the pictures themselves?  I could drive out to the Chisum family ranch and ask them to write a statement that they recall these pictures, but I'd just have a piece of paper wouldn't I.  If you go to the Billy's rifle thread you'll see where I've posted my pictures with known pictures of the same people and they match.  There can be no question about many of the pictures.  Are you saying that isn't proof?

[Dead I]

I'll tell you what Del-co, do you have any of the standard Billy the Kid books?  Ones that have pictures?  If so, if you don't mind, pick out a person whose picture you  like and tell me who it is and I'll see if I have a picture of that person and I'll post it. Then you can decide for yourself if my pic is legit.  I have all of the Regulators except for Charlie Bowdrie, and I may have him.  I have all of Sallie Chisum's family except for her uncle Pitzer, who I don't think she liked since he left the South Spring Ranch early...quitting so to speak.  I have many pictures of Sallie herself from age two to age seventy-two.  I have the Kid, Folliard, Patron, McSween, Brown, Brewer, Scurlock, Wilson, Rudabaugh,  Smith (Joe), Jones (not a regulator), probably McNab and Middleton.  I've got both Coe cousins and their wives.  I even have Matilda Davis, who was the lady who drove Richard Brewer nuts and caused him to leave Wisconsin and become Tunstall's foreman. 

I even have Sallie's pictures of the man she married (first husband), and his parents and cousins (He was an only child.).  So the question becomes how could I have these little pictures and they were not owned by Sallie.  Who else would collect these images, besides Sallie?

Sallie Chisum owned these pictures and she gave them to her favorite niece just before Sallie died.  She gave her "papers" to Lily Casey which became the book "My Girlhood Among the Outlaws". 

[Delmonico]

First of all get the name right or don't use it.  I see similarities but that don't mean anything.  So as I asked, where did you get them and where is the proof they are what they are.  Do that first before we really get down to discussing them.  With out it they are some old pictures that might be, but might be's and could be's don't hold no water in the real world.

Seems to me if you really had any proof you would have offered it a long time ago.

[Dead I]

I see similarities but that don't mean anything. 

Why not?

[Dead I]

Several people have PM'd me asking to see more pictures of Regulators.  Here is Josiah "Doc" Scurlock, taken at about the time of the LCW or maybe earlier when he was a Chisum cowboy. I'd guess ca. 1875.

[Dead I]

Sallie collected this tintype.  I think the suit is of an earlier style than others we see in her collection.  Doc liked to pose with his fist on his thigh.  Look at his upper lip...look closely.  I think you can see that his front teeth are missing, but his jaw has not collapsed yet, as it did as he matured.  I also think I can see a wound.  He had his front teeth shot out during a poker game. From evidence in the picture I think it has just happened.

[Dead I]

Here is another picture collected by Sallie Chisum.  It is about the fourth one I found.  I recognized the subject immediately when I saw the little picture.  It is none other than Tom O. Folliard, Billy's good friend.  There is another well known picture of  him taken when he was in his middle teens.  It had fallen from favor, but after I announced this one, that other, that looks so much like mine is now accepted again. 

[Delmonico]

So you ain't going to answer my question as to where you got them, any proof of what they are or if I'm the only one who doubts them. 

As you know I'm not, interesting what a little searching on a subject will turn up:

http://truewest.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=2518161:BlogPost:140444&xg_source=activity&page=1#comments

[santee]

Dead I, why not get these to someone who can offer some substantial proof for you to carry around. If they can be authenticated and put in history books, you could stand to make some extra $$.
It would also give readers a better experience of the Lincoln County War.

[Dead I]

So you ain't going to answer my question as to where you got them:

I though for sure I answered your question about where I found these pictures.  I found them in the Glenroe Antique shop in Central Oregon.  After two years of searching I found Sallie Chisum's relatives who live in NE Oregon. I drove to their ranch. They recalled the collection and know when they were sold and why.  Essentially the family had forgotten who the people depicted were.   I showed them the collection and they recognized some of them, all Chisum family children.  I also viewed their Chisum archive and saw hundreds of unknown pictures of their family, some where of Sallie and the South Spring Ranch.  

Come to find out Sallie gave her collection to her niece not long before Sallie died in 1934. Her niece, Ara V. Chisum moved to Troutdale, Oregon in 1919.  I'm not too sure when Sallie gave Ara the collection, but I know she showed family pictures to her children. But not the bad guys.  She was embarrassed about the family's loss of the SS Ranch, and their connection with outlaws. Today the Chisum family are big time ranchers and hard workers.  Very kind and interesting people.  I have pictures of them.

After Sallie's niece died in 1974 her home was locked up.  The pictures were stored in her attic.  After two decades the place was opened up and the contents sold off.  The pictures, now forgotten were tossed into old donut boxes and sold sight unseen.  They ended up on a little antique shop down the road from my  home.  I came along and recognized who the people were.  That is  how I found Sallie Chisum's collection of LCW pictures.

[Dead I]

Dead I, why not get these to someone who can offer some substantial proof for you to carry around. If they can be authenticated and put in history books, you could stand to make some extra $$.
It would also give readers a better experience of the Lincoln County War.

Thank you Santee.  The Chisum family recall some of the pictures.  They are ranchers and hard working cowpokes.  No "expert" will attest to the veracity of the collection because they tell me there are too many frauds around trying to peddle fake pictures, and we all know it has happened before. 

Here is what you can do for me.  If you have one of the many BTK books with pictures pick out a few that you like and tell me who you have picked out.  Then I'll find my picture of that person and post it.  Then you can become the expert and tell me if the pick is, in your opinion, authentic.

[Dead I]

Time for another picture.  This time a women.  Here is Sallie's picture of her friend, Lily Casey.  Lily was five years younger than Sallie and this is the best picture that she ever had taken.  She lived until 1946. 

[Dead I]

Many of the pictures in Sallie's collection include the name of the photographer, G.W. Morgan, embossed along the bottom of the little frame.  I drove to his home in Wisconsin. I found his personal album.  How about that!  Some of the pictures I found were of LCW people that I could recognize, such as J.J. Dolan.  I also found what I think are John Middleton and Frank McNab.  I cannot be sure however, since there are no other pictures of them to match mine too, but there is some evidence and the J.J. Dolan picture is obviously him.  Here is who I believe is Frank McNab....it's an educated guess however, but it is a Morgan picture so it has some provenance.

[Dead I]

Here's another picture of McNab....note the Morgan name embossed on the bottom.

[Dead I]

When one reads about the LCW one comes across a young Mexican boy named Yginio Salazar.  He and the kid were good friends, the Kid spending time at the young man's ranch after  his escape from the jail in Lincoln.  Yginio lived weill into the 20th Century and was a good source for Kid tales.  Yginio spoke Spanish, but so did the Kid.  The young man was 15 when severly wounded when McSween was killed.  The following picture was collected by Sallie, and I think it must be Yginio Salazar.

[Dead I]

A fifteen year old Hispanic boy.  A deep wound on his forehead that has not totally healed.  Nicely dressed.  Collected by Sallie Chisum.  It is most likely Yginio Salazar.  There are other photos of  him showing him in his 40's and then in his 70's.  His appearance changed, but it does from 15 to 40 and to 70, but there is evidence that this is the young man.  Why else would Sallie collect it?

[Dead I]

A quick bit about "documentation about the LCW I found". Most pictures of BTK related people come with a long line of documentation.  The picture was owned by so and so and then such and such, etc...  There is no such documentation concerning the pictures I have because I found them.  I bought them from a little antique shop.  There person who sold them had no idea who they were of.  I did find how they arrived at the store however.  Sallie Chisum's relatives had stored the pictures and then sold them, sight unseen in a yard sale when they cleaned out Walter Pitzer Chisum's daughter's attic two decades after she died.  A "picker" found them in donut boxes along with a bunch of other stuff, wrapping paper, etc... at the yard sale and sold them to the owner of the store where I found them.  The women who owns the store dug through the boxes and came across the little tintypes and put them out for sale.  I came alone and found them.  There is no documentation. 

[Rube Burrows]

A quick bit about "documentation about the LCW I found". Most pictures of BTK related people come with a long line of documentation.  The picture was owned by so and so and then such and such, etc...  There is no such documentation concerning the pictures I have because I found them.  I bought them from a little antique shop.  There person who sold them had no idea who they were of.  I did find how they arrived at the store however.  Sallie Chisum's relatives had stored the pictures and then sold them, sight unseen in a yard sale when they cleaned out Walter Pitzer Chisum's daughter's attic two decades after she died.  A "picker" found them in donut boxes along with a bunch of other stuff, wrapping paper, etc... at the yard sale and sold them to the owner of the store where I found them.  The women who owns the store dug through the boxes and came across the little tintypes and put them out for sale.  I came alone and found them.  There is no documentation. 

Any of us who have been following your posts know your story and where you say you got them. Its a nice story and if true such a lucky find. I will not talk negative about the pictures. They are very neat no matter who they are. If everything is on the up and up and you have the relationship with the Chisum family that you say you do. Would it not be worth it to you to contact them again and set something up so you can get something in writing on some family letterhead or SOMETHING to prove what you say is truth? It would end lots of the speculation from some people.

I think the bad feeling some people get is that you are pushing so hard for some people in the pics to be who you want them to be. Lots of wishful thinking and lots of speculation. Some people are just not buying.

I by no means have enough experience in the subject or the photos to know if they are whom you say they are.

Your merging the collection does not help your case any either.

I enjoy reading your post and enjoy looking at the pics. Whoever they are.