Cowboy Cartridge Loading Tools

Raven · September 09, 2010, 07:59:53 PM

Hey Guys,

Story's question about Thuer loading tools got Walt Kirst and I thinking about loading tools for cowboy cartridges.

We would like to know how many of you would be interested in "Hand Loading Tools" like the Belding and Mull tools the granddaddy of the Lee Loader in "Cowboy Calibers" such as .38 Colt, .44 Colt, .44 S&W, .45 Schofield, .45 Colt, and .45 Cowboy Specials ? These tools would be for inside lubed bullets but would also be able to load hollow base bullets for those of you with conversion revolvers with unlined barrels.

We don't know what the retail would be yet for tools like these

But we would like to know what you think

Raven AKA Jay Strite
Kirst Konverter LLC

panhead pete · September 09, 2010, 08:11:11 PM

Having used a LEE Loader for my 45 LC rounds when I first started, I might be interested as they would be a great "Camp" item. Would lend some authenticity to a match to reload in camp the night before. Try to make the primer seating tool better than the Lee. I set off more than one primer using one!

Best,

Panhead Pete

Cherokee Reb · September 09, 2010, 10:00:38 PM

I have an old Ideal loader in marked 38 S&W that I found works well for that and 38 Long Colt by adjusting the bullet depth. I have to punch out the primers by hand because I do not have the insert, but it loads them quite well otherwise. Been looking for one for 45 Colt with no luck. New made ones in the old style would be nice...hint,hint.

Raven · September 09, 2010, 10:33:42 PM

The idea is definately do them 'Old Style"! None of that chrome plateing found on Lee Loaders. And calibers not found in Lee Loaders.

Raven

Reverend P. Babcock Chase · September 09, 2010, 10:47:45 PM

Howdy Cowpersons,

Lyman's 310 tool is pretty close to the original Ideal tool, but lets you change calibers. Loading a full one day match's worth of ammo is a bit of a chore with one. I imagine that it would be even more time consuming with the Belding and Mull setup. A neat olde timey idea but probably not real practical for cowboy competitors.

I don't want to sound like a pessimist, the old gear is cool stuff, but even a single station press makes for a couple of hours work to get a day's ammo done.

Cordially

Reverend Chase

Captain John Jarrett · September 10, 2010, 01:45:06 PM

I would be up for one in the English calibres of the day .450, .455, .476

Raven · September 10, 2010, 03:22:17 PM

Thank you for the response

But it has become obvious that I need to pose the idea a little differently.
Please check out Loading Tools v2

Thanks Raven

buckskin billy · September 10, 2010, 08:29:43 PM

i would love to see the tools mention above as well as some old style bullet moulds. or any other old style reloading equipment for that matter. i hope you can make it happen

Dr. Bob · September 11, 2010, 01:56:55 AM

I would be interested in a set in 44 Russian! Err - 44 Colt Short

River Jordan · September 23, 2010, 07:31:28 AM

I am interested to see what you might come up with for 45 Colt, 44-40, 38-40, in historically correct ( more or less) boxes.

Story · October 06, 2010, 07:13:19 PM

Quote from: Raven on September 09, 2010, 10:33:42 PMAnd calibers not found in Lee Loaders.

.450 Colt/Adams/Webley.

Sir Charles deMouton-Black · October 06, 2010, 10:06:26 PM

Dr. Bob "I would be interested in a set in 44 Russian! Err - 44 Colt Short"

On another thread I posed a trivia question along the lines of "one of these things is not like the others!" The list was .44 Henry, .44 American, .44 Russian, .44 Colt, .44 Special, and .44 Rem Mag.

The way I see it, the .44 Martin, later civilianized as the .44 Colt, was developed by army arsenal personnel specifically to convert 1858 and 1860 Army revolvers to cartridge. Accordingly they worked with the existing dimensions of the issue revolver cylinders, and barrels. Within the limitations they were working within, they came up with they only possible solution, a case that would just fit the chamber diameter, and a heeled bullet to fit the stock barrel, .451 groove dia.

In the 21st century, someone changed the rules and the .44 Colt was "modernized" with an inside lubed bullet of .430!

All the others were incremental changes to the .44 Henry. First to centre fire (.44 American), to inside Lubed bullets (.44 Russian), then to increasing lengths. If you ignore the Henry and the American, the difference is clearer.

BTW; What is the meaning of "flat" as a suffix to .44 Henry?

Fox Creek Kid · October 07, 2010, 10:37:46 AM

Quote from: Sir Charles deMouton-Black on October 06, 2010, 10:06:26 PM...BTW; What is the meaning of "flat" as a suffix to .44 Henry?

Flat nosed bullet.

FWIW, the .44 Russian was NOT an inside lubed bullet until the 1880's.

FriscoCounty · October 07, 2010, 11:56:05 AM

Quote from: Fox Creek Kid on October 07, 2010, 10:37:46 AM

FWIW, the .44 Russian was NOT an inside lubed bullet until the 1880's.

By all accounts, the .44 Russian was designed from the beginning to use an inside lubed, and as a result, un-heeled bullet. That various cartridge manufacturers produced outside lubed versions of the cartridge until the 1880s should not infer that it wasn't an inside lubed cartridge until then.

If you have references that contradict the accepted understanding that it was designed from the git-go to be an inside lubed version of the .44 S&W American, could you post them. I would be interested in reading them.

Sir Charles deMouton-Black · October 07, 2010, 09:09:25 PM

"Flat nosed bullet. Grin"

FCK; That is my surmise as well.

Fox Creek Kid · October 08, 2010, 02:26:44 PM

Quote from: FriscoCounty on October 07, 2010, 11:56:05 AM
By all accounts, the .44 Russian was designed from the beginning to use an inside lubed, and as a result, un-heeled bullet. That various cartridge manufacturers produced outside lubed versions of the cartridge until the 1880s should not infer that it wasn't an inside lubed cartridge until then.

If you have references that contradict the accepted understanding that it was designed from the git-go to be an inside lubed version of the .44 S&W American, could you post them. I would be interested in reading them.

No offense, but what you`ve read was myth. There was an article on this in Handloader magazine 8 or 9 years ago as well. The Russian ammo was changed to inside lube only after a famous pistol shot beseeched I believe UMC to change the bullet due to hard fouling. Here is the proof you want. Scroll down to the .44 Russian photos & read the text as well:

http://www.oldammo.com/september04.htm

Sir Charles deMouton-Black · October 08, 2010, 04:51:57 PM

FCK; Thanks for the site. Very informative.

Perhaps we have been too loose in our use of terminology. It was my understanding that the case for the Russian was a larger diameter to allow the bullet to fit inside it, without resorting to a heeled design. Was the groove diameter of the Russian revolvers .429, + or minus, to fit a .429 bullet? I know the case diameter was .457, while the American case was .438 with a .434 heeled bullet.

Rather than focus on whether any lube was applied outside the case we should took to the bullet design and diameter.

FriscoCounty · October 08, 2010, 08:15:59 PM

The .44 S&W (American) was a simple center-fire conversion of the .44 Henry RF. The .434 bullet diameter of the .44 S&W matched the neck diameter of the .44 Henry. The .44 S&W (Russian) is a straight non-heeled conversion of the American. The diameter of the Russian bullet matched the inside diameter to the American cartridge.

I will do research into the 'famous pistol shot', but the fact that outside lubed Russian cartridges were manufactured does not disprove the belief that the cartridge was originally designed to be inside lubed. I will admit that it is possible that the change requested by the Russians could solely have been to adopt the use of flat base non-heeled bullets, which would be more accurate than heeled bullets.

Fox Creek Kid · October 08, 2010, 11:32:26 PM

Quote from: FriscoCounty on October 08, 2010, 08:15:59 PM...I will do research into the 'famous pistol shot', but the fact that outside lubed Russian cartridges were manufactured does not disprove the belief that the cartridge was originally designed to be inside lubed. I will admit that it is possible that the change requested by the Russians could solely have been to adopt the use of flat base non-heeled bullets, which would be more accurate than heeled bullets.

Let me help you.

The answers you seek are here:

http://www.amazon.com/Smith-Wesson-American-Model-Charles/dp/1931464243

S&W merely used the same bullet as used in the American for the Russian ctg. The groove diameters were the same, i.e., approx. 0.432. The difference being a larger diam. ctg. case & a stepped chamber. Trust me, it`s in THE definitive book aforementioned.

P.S. The original ctg. for the American was the S&W .44 which was different than the American ctg. Again, it`s in the book.

Bishop Creek · March 14, 2011, 09:56:18 PM

Quote from: Raven on September 09, 2010, 07:59:53 PM
Hey Guys,

Story's question about Thuer loading tools got Walt Kirst and I thinking about loading tools for cowboy cartridges.

We would like to know how many of you would be interested in "Hand Loading Tools" like the Belding and Mull tools the granddaddy of the Lee Loader in "Cowboy Calibers" such as .38 Colt, .44 Colt, .44 S&W, .45 Schofield, .45 Colt, and .45 Cowboy Specials ? These tools would be for inside lubed bullets but would also be able to load hollow base bullets for those of you with conversion revolvers with unlined barrels.

We don't know what the retail would be yet for tools like these

But we would like to know what you think

Raven AKA Jay Strite
Kirst Konverter LLC

Well Raven, having started out reloading on Lee hand loaders years, ago, I would love to have a set in .38 Colt and .45 Schofield.