Black Powder Questions

[Cemetery]

So I've only been a Darksider for about a year and a half, using real black exclusively, and have a few questions.

1) Magnum Primers.  What's the consensus?  I heard that they help with big bore cartridges, yet I also heard they can be bad due to adding pressure in the chamber in a bad way.  But if used in modern firearms, would this added pressure be a bad thing? 

2) Powder compression.  What's this all about?  I've heard people say they fill the brass to the rim with black, then seat the boolit, which really compresses the powder.  Then I hear people say not to do this, and that you should only fill the brass with powder just over the point of where the base of the boolit is.

I was told that with black powder you can really fill it to the rim cause you ain't gonna get near the pressures of smokeless.  And I heard that to much compression just leads to poor combustion and burning of the powder.

I personally reload to just above where the base of the boolit would sit, since fillin' it to the rim gave me too many crushed 44.40 cases, and they were difficult to come across a few months ago.

3) Burning of FFFg vs FFg vs Fg.  I recently heard from a fellow Darksider, that when he was watching a local program on muzzleloading, that they said that using FFFg for better combustion is a fallacy.  Because FFFg has smaller granules, there is less room for oxygen within the powder charge, which leads to incomplete combustion and reduced power. 

Thoughts on this? 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

You don't need magnum primers. I have been using nothing but standard primers for years. Black Powder is easier to ignite than Smokeless powder, all it takes is a standard primer. Magnum primers are for powders that are a little bit harder to ignite than usual in magnum cartridges. There is some evidence to the idea that you may get better accuracy with single shot BP cartridges and Magnum primers for precision long range shooting, but for CAS it does not matter. A magnum primer with a Black Powder load will raise pressure slightly, but not enough to matter with BP because the pressure is not very high to begin with. Smokeless is a different story, you have to watch the pressure if you are using a recipe for a standard primer and are up near the max.

All Black Powder needs is about 1/16"-1/8" of compression. More than that is overkill. I have read about guys trying to stuff 40 grains of powder into a modern 45 Colt case, which does not have the same case capacity as the old balloon head cases. They compress the powder so much that they really add to recoil, but probably just because they have stuffed so much powder in. You can do it, but it is overkill.

That business about less room for oxygen between the grains is ridiculous. What do you expect to hear on television? Do you think they will have a real expert on a local program? Read one of Mike Venturino's books and you will see that every time he compares velocity for FFg vs velocity for FFFg he gets about 60 -100 fps more with FFFg than FFg, everything else being equal. It's very simple. smaller grains have more surface area per pound than larger grains. That's why they burn faster. Exact same reason why a mouse has to eat more than an elephant, pound for pound. The smaller animal has more surface area for his mass, and looses more heat through his skin.

[Haggis MacGurk]

Howdy Cemetary,
                        I've been a Darksider for about 3 yrs now, and I shoot real BP in all my guns, from main match stuff to buffalo shootin' cannons. I'll wade in on this topic based on my experiences.
1. I use magnum primers in my large bore buffalo guns, ie 45-70 and 50-90, as it helps(I believe) with a more complete burn with the large quantities of powder in those cases, and results in tangibly better accuracy. For my main match pistol/rifle loads, 44-40 by the way, I use standard large pistol primers. I personally can't see a reason why magnum primers couldn't be used, I've just never used them for my .44s.
2. For main match guns, I drop enough powder into the case so that when the bullet is seated, I get about 1/8 inch compression. Powder is getting pretty expensive, and it will make a big enough bang for me without filling the case right to the top. Both methods are safe with REAL BP, the key point being no airspace under the bullet. As well, I have also destroyed my fair share of pricey 44-40 brass by crushing the necks.
3. I initially started using FFFg for main match guns, and encountered the opposite of your posted theory. At our club, I was actually questioned as to the legality of my loads within the velocity limits for CAS. Upon chronographing my pistols and rifle, we discovered that although I was under the velocity limits, it was getting a bit close.( 930fps for pistol, 4 5/8 barrel, 200gr Mav bullet. Rifle was in the neighbourhood of 1300, same load, '66 yellowboy with 24 in barrel)
I tried FFg the next time I purchased powder, and although I didn't chronograph them, they had noticeably less power.
I guess my methods make a little less of a Warthog than some other Darksiders, but my loads are more than enough to turn heads and annoy/slightly choke those others who choose to shoot the pfff-ting stuff!

Hope this helps ya a bit, just one man's experience
By the way, Driftwood posted his reply while I was typing mine, and I concur

[Cookie]

I don't have anywhere near the experience as some of the old hands here, so I can't really add anything.

But I do have a question for Driftwood -

They compress the powder so much that they really add to recoil, but probably just because they have stuffed so much powder in.

Do you mean that recoil increases strictly because of the amount of BP used? or does over-compressing the powder increase recoil?

[Dick Dastardly]

Over compressing black powder till it's one chunk tightly packed in the case will increase recoil because the chunk actually becomes part of the projectile till it all burns.  If the barrel is short enough, it burns after it leaves the muzzle and results in a big flash, boom and no increase in velocity.  It's a technique for the testosterone deficient.

FFFg will give higher velocities in smaller cases and smaller than 45 Cal diameter cases.  This is because it actually burns more completely in the confines of the smaller/smaller diameter cases.  From 45 Cal and up, FFg is recommended because it gives a smoother burn and does burn completely within the confines available.  The general rule is FFFg under 45 Cal and FFg over 45 Cal.  So, what do you do at exactly 45 Cal???  It's up to you, but when I'm loading my Cowboy 45 Special brass with Big Lube®LLC EPP-UG 150  grain bullets I use FFFg.  When loading 45 Colt with 200 or 250 grain bullets I may use either FFg or FFFg.  In my 45-70 long range rifle I load FFg or 1-½Fg Swiss.

For my shotgun use I load FFg in everything from 20 ga to 10 ga.

DD-DLoS

[Cookie]

@DD - That makes sense, thanks.

[Greysmoke]

2f or 3f?
I wondered why the orignal 45LC load was 40g 2f when the same of 3f would get about 100fps more from a 7.5" barrel.
UNTIL I bought a 1st gen, 1883 and saw how thin the cylinder walls were!!!!
Many of the early 1st gens also blowup with the 40g load. But they don't hardly mention it.

[w44wcf]

Howdy Cemetery,

PRIMERS- Mike Venturino mentioned the use of Magnum pistol primers in the 44-40, 45 Colt because he said that he had better results with them in reducing the fouling. He was not using Big Lube bullets though.  I have always used standard pistol primers with b.p. and found they work very well.

Historically speaking, original primers used by the factories  in b.p. cartridges were very mild and were not hot enough to ignite smokleless powders reliably.  So, when smokeless cartridges were introduced in 1895, hotter primers had to be invented to ignite smokeless satisfactorily.

I did a comparison in the .44-40 awhile back between CCI 300 large pistol and CCI 500 small pistol primers. REM-UMC cases were used with both.  Interestingly the milder CCI 500 primer produced velocities 30 f.p.s. greater than  the standard CCI 300 using the same charge of Swiss FFG powder. (CCI 500 primers used in 44-40 brass with small primer pockets).

COMPRESSION -
As was mentioned 1/16-1/8" is clearly enough for general use. For the best target accuracy though, one should vary the load using different compression rates (more powder, less powder) to see what combination gives the best groups from ones particular gun with the type of powder being used.

Original factory 44-40 and 45 Colt b.p. cartridges that I have dissected averaged .20 compression.

FG, FFG, FFFG - Personally I use FFG in .44-40 and 45 Colt and FFFG in anything smaller.

Here's the recommendation from Marlins 1897 catalog...

for use in M1894 Ctg's.
American Powder Mills' Rifle Cartridge No. 4
California Powder Works' Pacific Rifle No. 1
Dupont's Rifle FFG
Hazard's Kentucky Rifle FFG
Kings' Special FFFG
Laflin & Rand 's Orange Rifle FFG
Oriental Powder Mills' Western Sporting FFG
Oriental Powder Mills' Wingshot No. 2

for use in M1893 Ctg's.
American Powder Mills' Rifle Cartridge No. 3
California Powder Works' Pacific Rifle No. 1
Dupont's Rifle FG
Hazard's Kentucky Rifle FG
Kings' Special FFG
Laflin & Rand 's Orange Rifle Extra FFG
Oriental Powder Mills' Western Sporting FFG
Oriental Powder Mills' Wingshot No. 2

for use in M1895 Ctg's
American Powder Mills' Rifle Cartridge No. 3
California Powder Works' Pacific Rifle No. 2
Dupont's Rifle FG
Hazard's Kentucky Rifle FG
Kings' Special FG
Laflin & Rand 's Orange Rifle Extra FFG
Oriental Powder Mills' Western Sporting FFG
Oriental Powder Mills' Wingshot No. 2


w44wcf

[Fairshake]

Black powder burns from the outside in. 3F is smaller in size and will burn faster. The finer grades of powder that were once called sporting powder will also burn faster than that that is designed for reenactment or cannon or musket. When Driftwood speaks about no need for compression that is more than 1/8 in. In the long range shooting loads some are compressed as much as .368 that I load. You will also see LR shooters using large pistol primers in rifle cases with a piece of paper over the primer inside the case. This improves the load for a more even burn. In Sass you will find most BP shooters using 2F across the board if they shoot 44 and larger. I even have mixed a can of 2F and 3F and it works well. Less fouling than the straight. You will find that there are several different ways to do things in the world of BP shooting. They all for the most part work with everyone at the end with the same results. Don't toss a idea just because one person says it is wrong. I bought and used only magnum primers for a long time until I saw the results from standard primers. I have not purchased magnum primers since. Oh on the compression of bp rifle loads you do have to use a compression die to reach the depth that is needed. If you try it with a bullet it will crush it. You can put 40 grs. of powder in 45 Colt, or 44-40 without the least bit of problem. It is not someting that you need to do to shoot targets 7 yds away but it can be done. Every once in a while you will see some one say that modern cases can't hold 40 grs of powder. Enjoy the Dark Side as it is the only place where you are doing it the way of the 1800's.

[Percussion Pete]

Our targets are so close we don't need a lot of fps.  So, I use 2F for everything. That way I can use max loads and still have mellow recoil.

More powder.


More smoke. 

[Noz]

Our targets are so close we don't need a lot of fps.  So, I use 2F for everything. That way I can use max loads and still have mellow recoil.

More powder.


More smoke. 

Yup, Even in my cap guns.

[Fox Creek Kid]

CCI Magnum Pistol primers work best in my guns. 

[Flint]

One point about compression and finer powder.   There is no oxygen problem, gunpowder manufactures its own oxygen, it does not depend upon outside air.  Gunpowder, Black or smokess will fire in a vacuum.

Overcompression will damage brass, as someone noted.

Early balloon head cartridge cases had more capacity than modern solid head cases, which is why the early 45 Colt could be loaded with 40 gr of powder.  Early SAA Colts blew up cylinders because the steel used for cylinders at the time was not up to the task.

Magnum primers are better for setting off Pyrodex, and some very large capacity rifle cartridges, but for CAS shooting, a Winchester primer is adequate.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Well, one more correction.

The very earliest 45 Colt cartridges that could hold the most powder, were not modern type cases or balloon head. They were Benet primed copper cased cartridges. Like this:



These Benet primed cases had the largest interior capacity of any.

Here is a photo of a modern case vs a balloon head case. Yes, they are 44-40, but the idea is the same with a 45 Colt. The modern case has the least case capacity of all, because of the amount of metal that surrounds the primer pocket.



If we are going to talk about how much powder you can cram into a modern 45 Colt case, you also have to consider the fact that not all brands of powder weigh the same. I keep a chart in my reloading notebook of how much each of the powders I have used over the years weighs. My standard load for both 44-40 and 45 Colt is 2.2CC of FFg. This gives a compression of about 1/16" with a 250 grain bullet. But Goex only weighs about 34.5 grains while the discontinued Elephant brand weighed a whopping 37.5 grains for the same volume. So clearly it would not be much of a problem to cram in 2.5 more grains of Elephant and reach the 'magic' 40 grains. Schuetzen is the lightest powder I have used, it only weighs about 33.5 grains/2.2CC. So clearly I would have to compress the dickens out of Schuetzen if I wanted to cram 40 grains into a modern 45 Colt case. For CAS, there is no point. Besides, Black Powder is expensive. That's why I shot a lot of 45 Schofield this year, with only 1.9CC of powder inside.

About the metal used in early Colts. The very earliest Single Action Armys did not use steel at all for the cylinder and frame. Up until approx SN 96,000 (1883) they used a form of iron close to what we would call Malleable Iron today. Not really steel at all. That's why they used to blow up. That's why the Walker Colts used to blow up too, don't forget they could hold close to 70 grains of powder in their huge chambers. From SN 96,000 to approx SN 180,000 (1898) a transitional low/medium carbon steel was used for cylinders and frames. After SN 180,00 Colt began using a medium carbon steel for cylinders and frames. After 1900 Colt began using a better heat treating process with this type of steel and that is why Colt would not factory warranty the SAA for Smokeless powder until after 1900. The earlier metals could not take the pressure of Smokeless Powder.

This information is from Kuhnhausen's Colt Single Action Revolvers Shop Manual.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Driftwood,

That's great information - thanks.  I was not aware of the Benet primed cartridges.  Those are really interesting.

[Drayton Calhoun]

Another point to consider is the pressures. BP is and explosive and the majority of it's pressure is generated almost instantaniously, smokeless is a progressive propellent and the pressure builds higher and more rapidly as the gasses expand. As DD said, when you compress BP to the point where it becomes a pellet on the base of the bullet, it becomes a progressive propellant, then the pressures go up. At least that is how it was explained to me.

[Short Knife Johnson]

I've had best accuracy results using nothing more than regular pistol primers even in my .45-90.  Some of the crew I shoot with use under powder wads of newsprint or onion skin paper to lessen the flash.

There was a rule of thub posted on the Shiloh website some time ago.  Less than 0.150" compression use pistol primers, greater than 0.150" compression, use rifle primers.  My .45-90 loads right now are at .0.130" compression and I get the best accuracy from WLP.  Next season I'm going to bump up the compression and see how rifle primers do with and without under powder wads.  Using pistol primers with a newsprint wad was not giving good ignition - groups were round, but large.  Omitting that with the same powder charge gave much more competitive and round groups.  Testing is ongoing.

And thanks to Driftwood, I stole your photos for future reference.  I always have people ask what balloon head cases are, and I don't feel like cutting up the ones I have to show them.  The Benet cases - or stab-crimped as I learned it - will come in handy too.

[Fiddler Green]

As I've said here before (and a number of people have agreed with me), I shoot 3F in my .45 as 2F gets the guns to hot. This is especiaaly true of my lever gun. It's no fun burning your hands as you try to unload your guns at the unloading table!

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Cemetery, this just goes to show that there are few hard-n-fast rules for BP behavior.  Many people get good results with very different techniques!  Personally, I use 3F in everything I shoot except 45-70, non mag primers and compression is like Driftwood, at about 1/8" - but more sometimes depending on what I have set up.

I feel (again, it's my opinion, and it's only based on visual cues) that I get better burn and a bit less residue in my 45-70 using magnum primers, but mostly, it's because I bought many mag primers when I was a BP 45-70 beginner and the "experts" said I HAD to use mag primers or I wouldn't hit squat.  I know better now - I miss just as much with regular OR mag primers!
   

The fun comes when you experiment enough to find what works well for YOU in YOUR equipment!