!!! Help !!! Brass Frame Revolver; Cal .44; Not a Replica !!!

[steve]

Sorry, did not answer River City John and the question about the Pietta
Dear RCJ I am not an expert, yes they are "Grips", I just collect because I really like these guns from that era. I just recently retired from my businesses and always wanted to learn more about all the guns I collected when I had more time. Thank you for correcting me. I have to also admit that most of the other descriptions I used, I had to ask others first what the parts are called. I think I mentioned that I am just getting in to this and I am beginning to see why so many people are so fascinated. It is a great hobby and I am just at the beginning. Yes I need help !!! I plan on putting pictures of my collection on the flicker site soon.
Now to the "Pietta", once I took the GRIP off, It is totally different. Then I compared weight, frame thickness etc, it would take way too much to come up with this result. So at this time I am tossing the idea of a modified "Pietta" out. I did see the Cabelas website and actually looked at one of these guns. Thanks for the lead though, anything helps, I followed up on it.
Thank you all very much
Steve

[MJN77]

One other thing you should take into account, there have been several companies to make replica percussion revolvers since the 1950s. Not all of them had/have the same quality control. So you will have differences in weight, frame thickness, barrell length, etc....Even Uberti and Pietta revolvers differ on such things. You also mention you bought this gun at an estate auction. That means the previous owner died. You have no idea what HE paid for it. Could be HE was taken by a fake. Last thing, I posted a link to a Pietta revolver just like yours with a round barrel at Cabelas right now. Whoever might have faked the gun didn't have to file the barrel.

Just food for thought.

[Professor Marvel]

Greetings Monseur Steve -

you wrote:
>I can not imagine why someone would have spent that kind of time trying to make it look like that,
>could this gun along the way been modified ?

>All I know is that I bought it for about $ 150 in 1979 and it seems too much effort for anybody
>to do so much work for that little.

You have wondered why anyone would modify a revolver to look old, and indicate
that you have had it since 1979. In 1972 I bought a kit revolver identical to yours
and built it myself. It had few markings and it was very easy to file off the ones
that were there. I blued it, though, instead of aging it.

It was (and still is) the common practice of folks who were doing civil war re-enactments
to remove all markings, or "Defarb their pistols" as Sir Charles pointed out. Those of us who
were (or are) doing so did it for fun and were not concerned about the time it takes.

In this hobby, many other modifications are commonly made by various owners, including
artificial aging, barrel mods, grip and grip frame mods, and more - completely at their
owners whim and merely for the fun of it. It generally is not meant to produce a counterfeit.

There are in fact several pinned articles in these forums on how to age your firearms to look like
this.

Those who make a counterfeit are more likely to produce something amazing and engraved
and rare, rather than plain and unmarked, like the famous counterfeit engraved Walkers  :-)

No one here is trying to rain on your parade, but are offering their experience after
seeing and handling thousands (or tens of thousands) of examples.

Others have pointed out the following issues "against" it being over 100 years old, and I agree
with their assesment:
- modern lead-in relief troughs to the bolt stops
- Uneven Wear:
--- obvious over-all, even, fine pitting of the iron parts
--- not the same pitting on the screws, in the recesses of those bolt stops, nor the stamped numbers
--- the edges of those stamped numbers are crisp, with no pitting into the stampings

(thanks John and Sir C.)

Seeing the crisp edges of the stamping is one of the most telling indicators of a modern repro.

Lastly, check the thread pattern of the screws. If they are metric then it is absolutely
a modern repro.

I fear that only a test of the metalurgy as suggested by Sir C. would be definitive.

good luck on your quest, and I do hope you are having fun with your collection! That is, after all
what we are all about!

I can only shudder to think what someone will think when they turn up some of my "modifications"
10 years after I'm dead...

yhs
prof marvel

[steve]

Hello again
I am fully aware of the fact that this gun could be a fake that was very well made, but to dismiss it right from the get go ?
Thank you MJN77, the picture really does look very much like it and I will order one to compare it. At the very least it would be a fun toy to have and be able to shoot, specially since the one I have is a little too loose to be shot ever again.
Dear Professor Marvel, I totally agree with you. The modern lead-in- I have posted a picture of two "Griswold & Gunnison" revolvers that have exactly the same ones; looking at the pitting - the screws were made from a different material and are recessed and if you actually look at them, they are also pitted but less; The stamped numbers are not as crisp as they appear on the pictures.
If I wanted to use it in an reenactment, should it not look new since it would have been in the 1860's ?
Never the less, I am beginning to feel like I have posted a topic in the wrong location, all I tried to find out was if anybody knew someone that would be willing and able to look at it and scrutinize it and tell me what it is. Who does metal testing ?
Is there a place that I can get in touch with that could tell me more ? Anybody out there that has an idea other than "it is fake" ?
In any case, I will keep you informed of my findings and I will continue to enjoy my new hobby, Thank you for any input
Steve

[MJN77]

Steve, no need to be offended sir. As Professor Marvel said, we are just trying to help not put you down. Just about every one here knows about the brass frame .44 "navies" that the Italians have made for decades. There are NO KNOWN .44 cal  navy revolvers from the period except 1 Colt prototype (steel frame) in a museum. The two gunsmiths you showed the gun to, are they experts on Civil War revolvers? I know a very good smith that knows almost nothing of historical guns, but he does good work on them. Maybe the best thing to do is take it to the museum of the Confederacy. They could probably tell you where you could have the metal tested. I am sure they would have the number to a firearms expert too. We are just telling you that the odds of you having the one and only unknown confederate brass frame .44 navy that was ever made are very very slim at best. Like I said good luck with your revolver. You asked the question here because the people here are familiar with old firearms. You asked "what am I looking at?", yet you do not like the answers that have been givin. Again, no need to be offended, we are trying to help.

[St. George]

You've been given good advice, from folks who 'know' about artificial aging and removal of markings - as well as the actual history behind revolvers built by the Confederacy during the Civil War.

That it doesn't seem to fit with your conceptions of 'What if?' is a shame, because everyone's been more than helpful, and their assessments are spot-on.

Modern 'gunsmiths' are parts installers, all too often - with no background in truly historical firearms or their history and manufacture - and this is merely indicative of their relative youth and the fact that 'old' stuff isn't a staple of a gunshop any longer - having been supplanted by 'Black Rifles' and such.

Asking them for advice on a period weapon is fruitless, though they can quite often effect repairs on anything, since the mechanisms haven't varied all that much over time.

Had one of them actually known about Confederate firearms - his first question would've been 'How much do you want for it?'

Albaugh, Benet and Simmons wrote 'Confederate Revolvers' - long described as the 'bible' of CSA handguns - order it through an Inter-Library Loan from your local Public Library and you'll see what they learned of production and caliber.

Not only did the Civil War Centennial see the introduction of replicas - it also saw the introduction of fakes - especially for Confederate weapons - all aged, all well-darkened - none with any markings beyond numbers, if those.

Add a few years and they begin to look really good.

Factor in the different Civil War reenactors and the wear and tear given those guns and they look better than good.

Look under 'Metallurgist' in your Yellow Pages - you should be able to find someone local who can help you.

Good Hunting!

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I concur with Prof. Marvel and St. George;  No one is casting dispersions on you!

I suspect, as Prof. Marvel said, that as time passes more well worn reenactor pieces will emerge from estates to cause us all a lot of puzzlement.  You MIGHT have a real good one, but the key for me was the stepped cylinder.

Get the metal tested. The metallurgy of authentic antiques are on record.

[steve]

I do realize that, I know that there was a Texas manufacturer that made .44"s, also Colt made the 1860 Army in .44, but they do look different. One of my next trips is to Richmond to the museum of the Confederacy. The tip with the gun you showed me in your last post is a good one too, and I will look at it. I just have a lot of doubts that the one I have is of newer date, if I could just show it to you, you would understand. Do you by any chance live in the central Virginia area? As I said before, I am no expert and it could very well be one of the best made hoaxes! I would just like to know for sure. Next week I am meeting with someone that can hopefully tell me more, I will let you all know, Promise! I just do not want to label it right of the bat as a fake just because it does not fit into the norm. Odd things appear all the time! If it is a hoax, I will have a good drink and a good laugh, nothing lost! I do enjoy the toys I have and will continue to have fun with my new found passion. I will next week redo the flickr site and put the other guns I own on there for all to enjoy, they are beautiful. Please keep up your great work with keeping history alive, I always enjoy the reenactments and shows in this area. America needs people that keep a great history alive and thrive to find out more. I had a 3600 acre farm and local guys used it a lot to shoot their old guns, the farm also came with a Confederate Cemetery which I always kept up. But many of these guys already looked at this gun and did not know what to make of it. Any which way, in an odd way I am looking forward to having a drink on this matter and will take the matter lightly!  
Thank you
Steve

Thank you St. George, I am grabbing the Yellow Pages now, why did I not think of that earlier ? Once I have resuts, who compares them?

Thank you Sir Charles, I am taking this very lightly and given the very big chance that it is a hoax, I understand. I just do not wish to dismiss it right from the get go. I am merely looking for ways to find out.

I do love your work in keeping history alive, Cheers !

[MJN77]

We just hate to see you get your hopes up, Steve. I knew a man in Gettysburg Pa that got conned on an original Remington. No modern markings, looked 140 years old, etc etc. Paid $1200 for it. Turns out it was a Pietta. If it turns out you have a one of a kind, that's fantastic. But as I have said all my life "expect the worst and hope for the best". Either way, it's an exciting game to find the origin of that old hogleg aint it? Good luck sir, I wish you well.

[steve]

Hello MJN77
It is a lot of fun, my guess it is a great hoax, but I would like to rephrase my question: "Does anybody have a Replica that looks like this one "
As I said, it would be no loss and I am not looking for money. If it turns out to be real, it goes to a museum !!!
If it is a hoax, CHEERS !!!
Got to go to Annapolis, Talk to all of you ( y'all ) next week,
Steve

[Professor Marvel]

Good Luck Steve, I hope it goes well. I look forward to seeing the rest of your collection, and hearing the story on this one .

and I would like to offer a heartfelt "thank you" to a man maintaining a cemetery on his own dime!

As I pointed out earlier, check the threads on all the screws - if they are INCH rather than Metric then you are in the ballpark.

best regards and remaining
your humble servant
prof marvel

[Mogorilla]

Hope it works out for you.  Just a quick question.  Have you checked the screws to see if they are metric?  Since most of the replica pistols out there are European, the screws are metric (my piettas are).  an 1860 pistol would be standard screws.  not sure how to check that out, but it would be cheaper than a metalurgist.

[River City John]

Hello MJN77
It is a lot of fun, my guess it is a great hoax, but I would like to rephrase my question: "Does anybody have a Replica that looks like this one "
Steve

Steve,
Dr. Jim Davis has a very extensive site devoted to repro black powder revolvers.
I bookmarked this page headed "Other Models", and about 2/3 down the page is your reproduction Grisswold & Gunnison .44cal. model, complete with rebated cylinder.

http://rprca.tripod.com/ModelsOther.html


RCJ

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

This thread is becoming very "educational".

RCJ;  I now have this site bookmarked.

[steve]

Hello Everybody
Just came back from Annapolis, took my boat up, never have seen the Chesapeake Bay that calm and beautiful. Back to reality, I am sending the "Hopefully Interesting .44" to "Collectors Firearms" in Texas. They will have a look at it. They already told me that it may be fake, but if it is, it is the best one yet! Well I just want to know, I will see about the screws before I send it off, great idea ! RCJ, yes that Griswold looks just like it, I just can not click on it and would like to know who made it. I don't know about all of you, I am having fun! In any case I will have a few drinks, will keep you up on the results. They may take a while, Steve

[Buck Stinson]

Steve,
Sent you a private message a few minutes ago.  Let me know if you have any questions.

Adios,
Buck

[Major 2]

Over the years, I have defarfed a good number of pieces as a Prop master.
I've taken the NEW edge off many on camera principal actors guns.

I've have not taken a revolver as far your's , but I have done some single shot flinters for the film "National Treasure"

One tell tale clue, on your Revolver you might look for (don't think anyone has mentioned ) is the Rotary Mill run out
when the loading lever channel was cut.
If it's radiused (see attached ), it was cut with a modern mill

[Wild Billy Potts]

One tell tale clue, on your Revolver you might look for (don't anyone has mentioned ) is the Rotary Mill run out
when the loading lever channel was cut.
If it's radiused (see attached ), it was cut with a modern mill

Did they use a shaper? I have read that the modern milling machine is one of the newer machining tools there is.

[Dead I]

Just my two cents here; I have several original handguns.  All of them, very single one shows that it's been used as a hammer.  You can see little nail hits on the butt and a few are cracked from too much hammering.  I guess one might try to frame a house with a Colt, but I'd not recommend it.  They were probably used to fix fence.

[River City John]

I don't know, but I have a tendency to think Hollywood taught us that they were all used as hammers.

Why would any work hand out riding/mending fence not have the proper tools? A small hammer, wire cutters, staples, leather work gloves and small roll of bailing wire can be easily carried in a saddle bag or pouch.

19th century common sense and proper respect for tools would surely have squelched any practice that routinely damaged a most valuable tool that your, or your mount's, life may have to depend on at any instant.

RCJ