Anybody see/handle/shot a Cimmaron Armi-sport Sharps?

[Bob R.]

I've been reading the forum recently, and did a search on Armi-Sport, so I know there is negative opinion out there regarding the maker, and know some of the reason for it.

I've handled a lot of Italian repops of various BP guns, and I was very impressed with Cimmarons offerings, standing above most of what I have handled. Does this carry over to the Sharps models they import?

A related question is does anybody have any definite, tangible, and measurable reasons as to why the Armi-sport is sub-standard? Other than a preference for US makers, that is, are there any defects you have personally seen or witnessed? Are they mechanically sound? Is there a significant and visible difference between the reporoduction and the original? (outside of the finish of the wood).

[Major 2]

I had a 74 carbine in 45-70.....It was well finished ( though it came from another importer, not Cimarron )
very nice piece.

I also had 2 Shilohs a 63 Richmond carbine & and Berdans Rifle ( Carbine was nice, but not $400 nicer than the 74 )
The Rifle was CRAP ! like a Monday after happy hour crap.....@ $1250, I sure did not expect the lever spring to snap on the 5th shot !
Shiloh sent a replacement for me to install only after I sent the failed piece to them and then it was 3 months wait !
Next, the stock cracked right at the tang screw hole, and came apart ( truns out the stock nicely figured BTW, had a weak grain and knot right at the tang and mortice)...Understand it was percussion Rifle and mostly 50 grain charges were used.
They ( Shiloh ) would send a stock blank but fitting it was to be on my DIME.
I wanted to send the Rifle back for replacement , they declined stating they don't or didn't warranty wood! best they'd do was send a Blank. Fricken thing was rough and not even inletted for the patch box.

OH !  sorry were were talking ArmiSport 74 .... I'm sorry I let my 74 Carbine get away...but then there are many pieces I foolishly let slip away....LIKE my Italian made 1863 Garrett Sharps.

[Abilene]

Bob, are you getting Armi-Sport confused with Armi-San-Marcos?  Armi-Sport has a pretty good reputation.  They export mostly '92's, Spencers, and Sharps rifles to the U.S.  The quality of the Sharps are decent; not as good as the Pedersolis but also cost considerably less.  They seem to be going by the name Chiappa mostly for the past couple years.  I'm not sure but heard that part of that was so that folks wouldn't get them confused with Armi-San-Marcos which is not in business but had a poor rep.

[Bob R.]

Hi Abilene,

I am not confusing the two, although the posts I have read may have confused the two companies. I did my searches on this board on Armi-Sport specifically.

If you don't mind me asking, what are the tangible differences between Armi-Sport and Pedersoli, other than name? Fit? Finish? Mechanical reliability? Accuracy to dhistorical detail of reproduction?

I spoke to a friend today who had owned an Armi-Sport carbine he had traded off, and he liked it, and said it was good quality. He is a gunsmith, although specializing in flintlock arms.

[Bob R.]

I should clarify what I am looking for in a Sharps, and its intended use.

I want a mechanically sound, reasonably authentic reproduction that is safe to shoot. I don't particularly care about the finish of the stock, or if it is a European walnut rather than American, I am perfectly capable of stripping the wood and giving it a rubbed boiled linseed oil finish myself, although I am not interested in gunsmithing the lock. I am not a sharps collector, and this will likely be the only sharps I ever own, and I will keep it if it is decent - my widow can dispose of it when I am gone.

I would like to try shooting it in matches, but most of the time I will be shooting it for my own gratification, I will be putting probably 500 rounds or a little less through it a year. I would like a sound, affordable gun that will stand up to that level of shooting, so I can take the difference in money between a more expensive replica and invest in a good sight for it. I might try hunting with it, but I will more often be shooting it at a range. The greatest distance I will probably ever shoot it at will be 600 yards.

Right now, I was looking at the Billy Dixon model Cimmaron imports, (10 lbs is the listed weight) in 45-70. I love my shoulder too much to go for a heftier punching caliber.

[Abilene]

Hi Bob,
Now I am not as familiar with the Sharps as some others.  What I do know is that the Armi-Sport tends to be somewhat more historically authentic in some of the details.  The Pedersoli tends to have the better barrel, and the wood usually (but not always) seems a little prettier.  Mechanically I have not heard of any problems.

[Ranch 13]

 I have an Armisport translation of the Sharps rifle as sold by Taylors.
It has a decent barrel, altho the chamber is to long and to keep leading to a minimum 45-90 brass needs to be trimmed to 2.3 inches. The metal finish is alright, the wood fit and finish is ok , it's no shiloh or csharps but more than servicable. And that's about the end of the good things I have to say about it.
If you don't loctite down ALL the screws they will back out in 20-30 rounds. The lock parts and breechblock are not properly hardened, and the firing pin hole in the breechblock is a freaking mess, very roughly finished. I also know of another of these rifles that the owner has to have firing pins specifically made as noones replacement pins (including Armi's) will fit nor work.
IF you stick to the 500 rounds max per year you may get by all right. Over that and you'll soon find out why the few hundred dollars difference between the cost of the Italian imports and the Big Timber built rifles is a pitance. Especially if you do have broken parts that need replacing.
You mentioned you wanted something your heirs could sell when you're thru. Take a look thru the various gun sales, used Shiloh's and C Sharps hold their value and may actually increase, the Italian imports not so much.

[MJN77]

Well I guess I'll give my @ cents. I had an Armisport 1859 sharps carbine. It was a great gun. Action was smooth, it was accurate, really good gun. Stupidly, I sold it to buy a Pedersoli confederate sharps carbine. Wish I would've kept the Armisport. The Pedersoli is accurate but that's it. It binds up after 2-3 shots no matter what I do to it. The action is stiff and downright hard to operate. The biggest part that pi$$e$ me off is the fact that the nipple is installed at an angle. It would scrape the back of the reciever if the nipple wasn't filed flat on the backside..and that was done AT THE FACTORY!!!!! They knew about it before they let the rifle out of the factory. Sorry, point is Armisport, as far as my experience is a quality gun although they do have soft screws.

[Bob R.]

I have an Armisport translation of the Sharps rifle as sold by Taylors.
It has a decent barrel, altho the chamber is to long and to keep leading to a minimum 45-90 brass needs to be trimmed to 2.3 inches. The metal finish is alright, the wood fit and finish is ok , it's no shiloh or csharps but more than servicable. And that's about the end of the good things I have to say about it.
If you don't loctite down ALL the screws they will back out in 20-30 rounds. The lock parts and breechblock are not properly hardened, and the firing pin hole in the breechblock is a freaking mess, very roughly finished. I also know of another of these rifles that the owner has to have firing pins specifically made as noones replacement pins (including Armi's) will fit nor work.
IF you stick to the 500 rounds max per year you may get by all right. Over that and you'll soon find out why the few hundred dollars difference between the cost of the Italian imports and the Big Timber built rifles is a pitance. Especially if you do have broken parts that need replacing.
You mentioned you wanted something your heirs could sell when you're thru. Take a look thru the various gun sales, used Shiloh's and C Sharps hold their value and may actually increase, the Italian imports not so much.

Hi Ranch 13,

I have read about the problem of screws backing out, and the loctite solution - it may have been a thread you had posted to. That was the reason I was going to go through Cimmaron, as I have owned a number of Italian cap and ball wheelguns, and had to gunsmith them, and have been very happy with the contrast with my Cimmaron Uberti-import in comparison. From what I have seen, they do clean up the actions, and I am willing to pay them the couple hundred more than Taylors or other importers for a gun examined before sale.

It isn't a few hundred difference between the C. Sharps or the Shilo for an identical model, it is double the price. Their plainest carbines seem to come in at about what an (expensive) Italian gun does. If it were only a few hundred difference, I would consider one, but I can get a functional gun, first rate sights for it, and still have money left over between the difference.

[Bob R.]

Thanks everybody for the thoughtful replies! I would be very happy to see more responses from others with personal experience as well.

[Ranch 13]

It isn't a few hundred difference between the C. Sharps or the Shilo for an identical model, it is double the price. Their plainest carbines seem to come in at about what an (expensive) Italian gun does. If it were only a few hundred difference, I would consider one, but I can get a functional gun, first rate sights for it, and still have money left over between the difference.

Bob me thinks you need to go back and check prices just a bit. You're going to pay 1300 at the very least for a "Billy Dixon" from Italy. Basic Shiloh or C Sharps is 1800, a very long ways from being doubled.
But you go ahead and spend your American made dollars on foreign business's and workers if you want to......

[Bob R.]

Hi Ranch,

I think we are comparing apples and oranges. I wrote that they were double in price for Identical models.

Let me give you an example - I was interested in the 'Billy Dixon Armisport from Cimmaron - as you said, $1300. I can get it for slightly under MSRP at the local shop, so a little less.

Here is the C. Sharps equivalent

http://www.csharpsarms.com/1874_hartford.php
MSRP is $2,095 - but wait, for the Buckhorn and blade sight. you have to add more money

Buckhorn and Blade Sight Set $95.00 , so we are at $2,110, which is nearly double the price. Mild hyperbole on my part to say 'double'

The bare-bones 1874  is $1,895 - without the buckhorn sight, which pushes the price to $2,000 Not a mere 'few hundred' difference.

Basically, you are telling me to buy American, because it is worth the extra price. I'll gladly pay a few hundred extra to the Americans in Texas to make sure I get a gone-over Italian made gun. They need their jobs as well. Add the long waiting list to the prospect, and some horror stories I have heard about turn-around time on parts to repair guns, and it just isn't an attractive proposition.

[Ranch 13]

Waiting list smaiting list... C Sharps has a pretty fair selection of rifles ready to ship. Shiloh has some as well.
C Sharps will take less than 3 months to deliver, Shiloh is a bit longer , but either way , the basic Italian will no way compare in quality.
Any horror stories that are around about repairing guns or getting parts surely isn't from the Big Timber companies, but if you'ld like to hear about the 2 week wait to get a new sear to replace the one that broke in my AS built gun, and the nearly 3 hours it took to fit it......
Broke a firing pin and transfer bar in my CSA, 3 days later the replacement showed up. I sent the broken parts up to Big Timber and the next week another set of replacements show up free gratous. I know of one example when a shoot was held up an hour on Sunday waiting for someones Shiloh part they had sent out of Big Timber SATURDAY afternoon.
I'll leave you with this one last thought. Never heard of anybody selling their Shiloh/CSA to buy any of the Italians, the other way around is a different story tho......
They can "go over" those AS guns all they want, but unless they retap all the threads, and harden the parts that need it, you're getting an Italian import with  Cimmarons name stamped on it. 

[MJN77]

I figure Bob can spend HIS money anywhere or on anything he wants to. If he wants to buy a Cimarron sharps, that's up to him. A lot of people buy them and are happy with them. I have also heard "horror stories" about CSA and Shiloh.

[Ranch 13]

 You're absolutely right, he sure can spend his money whereever however he wants to. Lots of folks have, and then turned around at a later date to.... well......
Yep I'm sure you've "heard" horros stories about Shiloh and C Sharps, but I'm thinking it'll be like finding hens teeth to find someone that has the stuff to back those "horror" stories up....

[MJN77]

Cousin bought a Shiloh sharps about 7-8 years ago. Firing pin broke. Shiloh wanted to sell him a new breach block instead of a firing pin. He argued with them for a couple of weeks till he found a machinist to fabricate a new firing pin. He then sold the Shiloh. Don't know why you come across as "looking down" on people that don't agree with you. If you want Bob to have a CSA or Shiloh so bad, give him the extra money to buy one. If people didn't buy Armi sport or Pedersoli sharps rifles, they wouldn't be in business. If someone doesn't want, or can't afford to buy a CSA or Shiloh, that's up to them.

[Ranch 13]

 Not looking "down" on anybody.  Just speaking from hard earned experience. Go back and read, and you'll see I own an Armi Sport
If you go back and read a little bit, you'll soon see that I said if all he's going to do is 500 rounds or less per year, most likely he'll get along fine. Altho he'ld be well advised to get extra firing pins, springs and lever springs and get those fitted and ready to go, and carry them in the range box....
I also commented on his wanting to have something that his heirs could sell when he's done with it. The imports loose to much of their value the minute you walk out the store. The Big Timber rifles either hold their value or appreciate.
You need to tell the rest of your "cousins" story, there's a fairly significant part left out...... Bet when he sold it he didn't take to big of a loss on  it....

[MJN77]

Bob asked for advice on the Cimarron sharps rifles, not a sermon on the virtues of the almighty CSA and Shiloh rifle companies, or that he should spend money he doesn't want to or can't afford. When someone disagrees with you, it's because "me thinks you need to go back and check prices just a bit' after he has already done his research, or we say we have heard "horror stories" and you mock us because "Any horror stories that are around about repairing guns or getting parts surely isn't from the Big Timber companies" , or you refer to my "cousin" (what, you want his name and address??)  like we are children making up stories to back up our opinion. To say you are not looking down on anyone is a misstatment at best. If you love CSA or Shiloh rifles and can afford them, great. I'm happy for you. If Bob, or anyone else wants to get an import sharps, that's also great. But don't imply we are lying just because we do not think the same way as you do. There is plenty of room for imports as there is for the expensive models. Not trying to pick a fight man, but not everyone wants to spend the money for one of the big boys.

[Ranch 13]

Okydoky, sleep tight don't let the bedbugs bite...

[Bob R.]

No need for people to argue on my account. I appreciate all the input, positive and negative. I am trying to get as wide a response as possible, to tally up how much of a chance I stand to get a lemon.

Every manufacturer, even the best, in my experience, occassionally produce a lemon. The ones that produce a large number of lemons, on the other hand, one should steer clear of.

I appreciate your input Ranch, and your knowledge and experience.

From my research (correct me if I am wrong) I look at Shilo or C. Sharps as being the people to go to if you want a specific Sharps, with x/y/z combination, or any random combination of features that appeal that are not available in a typical production model by the Italian mass-producers. They have a better finish and fit, they are probably more carefully gone over with quality control through the course of their production. I am not getting the sense that the larger Italian manufacturers produce bunches of lemons, but some companies that are now defunct did in the past. Overall, in my own experience with other black-powder guns, the level of quality of Italian reproduction guns has slowly increased in the last couple of decades.

The C. Sharps and Shilo might hold their value better than other Sharps reproductions, but in my experience in the Arms and Armour / antiquities market, a reproduction  - especially one that is shot, is extremely unlikely to appreciate in real value. Let me clarify, unless they are some limited edition collectable, specifically made for the purpose (a commemoritive issue or re-issue), they will always go for less than a new-in the box production of the same model from the same company.

I'm not too worried about what my heirs will do with whatever I buy, as I have no children, and my niece is likely to use such an object as house decoration.  If I predecease my wife, and she decides not to shoot it herself, she will know how to dispose of it to the best advantage, as she is a shooter herself.