Trapdoor Springfields - When did they become available to Civilians?

[Bob R.]

Hi All,

Reading through the Forum, I see Trapdoor Springfields became available as surplus arms circa 1908, but about what time-frame would you first find them trickling into civilian hands, outside of Army Scouts?

I am rather fond of them, when my Grandfather first joined the MVM in 1898, either one of those or an Allyn Conversion was his first issued arm, and if it is accurate for someone to have one, circa mid 1880's, I'd opt for one instead of a Sharps. If not, I will look to a Sharps as a breechloader.

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Hi All,

Reading through the Forum, I see Trapdoor Springfields became available as surplus arms circa 1908, but about what time-frame would you first find them trickling into civilian hands, outside of Army Scouts?

I am rather fond of them, when my Grandfather first joined the MVM in 1898, either one of those or an Allyn Conversion was his first issued arm, and if it is accurate for someone to have one, circa mid 1880's, I'd opt for one instead of a Sharps. If not, I will look to a Sharps as a breechloader.

Well....the Native civilians had them at the battle of the little bighorn (1876)......probably some time before that....?

Bill

[Delmonico]

The eirler models were being sold by the government in the later 1860's  Bill Cody bought one and hunted meat for the Kansas Pacific in 1867-68, of course that was the 50-70 version.

[Bob R.]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the responses.

While the Indians had them, weren't they primarily using Uncle Sam as the same sort of Comisariat the Confederacy did a decade earlier? They weren't giving them out as treaty gifts, were they?

I know the Allyn conversion was available to the civilian market, but I was thinking specifically of the M 1873. Bill Dixon had an officers model, I have read, but presumably he got that while in the capacity of a civilian scout for the army.

[Delmonico]

Remembered something else last night, soldiers that deserted often took their arms with them and later sold them to civilians.  Don't know how common it was but during the average year about a fourth of the frontier army deserted, often to head to the gold fields.

[Bob R.]

Thanks Delmonico,

I hadn't thought of that angle, and I should have, reading 'I can see by your outfit' recently.

[Blair]

 This looked like some pretty good information and I thought it might help with this discussion.

http://hgmould.gunloads.com/casting/trapdoorspringfield.htm

quote;
"Trapdoors were chambered by Springfield for 20 gauge, 58-60-500-rim fire, 50-45-450, 50-55-450, 50-60-450, 50-70,45-55-405, 45-70, 45-80-500, and 30-40. A total of 570,318 from 1865 to 1893 were manufactured. 5,005 58cal Model 1865's were all produced in 1866.  50-70 rifles in various models were made from 1867 thru 1873. 45-70 rifles in various models were made from 1873 thru 1893. 1,376 models 1881 20ga. Forager's were made from 1880 thru 1885. Beside the regular military, the government offered them to militias, national guards, schools & colleges, fraternal organizations, and clubs.  Springfield Armory was still repairing them in 1906 for reissue. Up to 1916 old trapdoors were made into fencing muskets by Springfield. One guard unit still had rifles in 1940 in their inventory.  1898 is the last year the government made .45-70 caliber ammunition, and it was of Smokeless type. 4 trapdoor pistols were mfg. 2 in .50-45, and 2 in .36."

[Bob R.]

That was a very cool page to read, and thanks for the info!

[Hangtown Frye]

To back up what Delmonico said, Billy Breackenridge in his book "Helldorado" mentions buying a .50-70 trapdoor rifle from a deserter on his way to the goldfields in Colorado in 1867.  He noted that he had a gunsmith put civilian sights on it, and had him also cut the barrel down a four inches so that it wouldn't be confiscated by the Army should they spot him with it, as it would at that point become a "condemned" piece and therefore "surplus", and he could legally own it.  At that date it would have to be an 1866 Trapdoor, of course.

Also, Buffalo Bill used an 1866 Springfield Trapdoor during his exploits hunting for the Kansas Pacific Railroad, and it seems as though in 1867 they were issued a number of trapdoors (probably mostly 1865 Allin Conversions in cal. .58 Rimfire though) on bond from the government.  One doubts that all of them were returned.

So really, there isn't anything stopping you from doing an extremely early, and very authentic post-Civil War impression with a complete battery consisting of a 50-70 Trapdoor, a Henry or Winchester "improved Henry" 1866, and a pair of Colt or Remington cap-and-ball revolvers.  If you want a breech-loading shotgun, pinfires were available from the 1850's on, and are still available quite cheaply.  Not all that hard to make the ammo for them now, either.

Cheers!

Gordon

[Fox Creek Kid]

Buffalo Bill was issued one as he was a contract hunter for the U.P.R.R. which was backed by the gov`t (see Panic of '73).

As has been said many deserters (up to one third took the ``Big Bounce``) fled with arms in tow. Technically, it was illegal to sell an issued gov`t weapon w/o approval but I have always wondered why Schuyler, Hartley & Graham peddled ``needle guns`` in this era. Couldn't have been corruption, could it?  

[Guns Garrett]

This doesn't really answer your question as to "When", but I came across an old advertisement for "M Hartley Co., 313 and 315 Broadway, New York, N.Y.   Military Arms, Equipments, and Ordnance Stores, 1903-04":

U.S. Springfield Breech Loading Rifles
Military Rifles, 45 cal., brown finish, open Springfield sight, ............$7.50
Military Rifles, 45 cal., brown finish, Buckhorn Wind Gauge sight.....$9.00
Military Rifles, 50 cal., Bright finish angular bayonet.......................$4.50
Military Carbines, 45 cal.,..........................................................$7.50

Remington Rifles
Military Rifles, 43 cal., ...angular bayonet....................................$12.50
Military Rifles, 43 cal.,...Sabre Bayonet.......................................$15.00
Military Rifles, 50 cal.,...angular bayonet.....................................$12.50

The ad also lists the following Breech-loading carbines: Sharps 52 cal linen $2.00, Spencer 52RF $4.00,Burnside $2.50, Maynard $2.00, Remington (N.Y.S. Model)$4.50, and Smith $3.00

"Roberts Transformed Springfield Rifles, 58 cal., Rim Fire  $4.00"

Sevearl pages more, including "War Relics of the Span-Am War - 7mm Mausers for $12.00

Wish I had a time machine!

[Tascosa Joe]

I bought one of those Remington .43 cal rifles from Sears in 1965 or 1966 for 18.00.  It was still in the cosmoline.  I wished I didn't have the soul of a trader.

[JimBob]

Hi All,

Reading through the Forum, I see Trapdoor Springfields became available as surplus arms circa 1908, but about what time-frame would you first find them trickling into civilian hands, outside of Army Scouts?

I am rather fond of them, when my Grandfather first joined the MVM in 1898, either one of those or an Allyn Conversion was his first issued arm, and if it is accurate for someone to have one, circa mid 1880's, I'd opt for one instead of a Sharps. If not, I will look to a Sharps as a breechloader.

There is a book called Arming the West by Herbert G. Houze detailing the shipping records of Schuyler,Hartley,& Graham's from 1868 to 1886 to western dealers.Trapdoors in .45-70 seem to start showing up about 1880.During the period covered the records show 1902 Allin .45-70 Rifles and 396 Carbines were shipped to western dealers.Without doing a page by page search I'm guessing these were shipped for the most part between 1880 aprox.to 1886 which is as far as the book goes.During this same period 2083 Allin .50-70 rifles were shipped.

This is an interesting book if you are interested in types of guns one would have found in many of the gun dealers and hardware stores during that period.A lot of Civil War surplus arms.One of the arms shipped west in this period in large numbers was the U.S.M1842 Percussion Musket,5567 of them.LOL Not everyone had Colt's and Winchester.

[Dr. Bob]

The US 1842 Musket had the advantage of being able to shoot a large round ball or lots of shot!  For a poor farmer, that would be the ticket!!  Deer & ducks.  Prong horns and pheasants.  Bear & bobwhites.