Thoughts on the movie Son of the Morning Sun

[Rube Burrows]

I just watched this movie and found it to be entertaining. I admit that I dont know much about Custer. I have just started reading about him and his place in history.

What are your thoughts on the movie? Was it an accurate portrayal?

What are some other good movies and/or books about Custe? 

[Stillwater]

I haven't read anything about George Armstrong Custer that was very accurate, whether it was pro-Custer, or anti-Custer.

Bill

[Rube Burrows]

I haven't read anything about George Armstrong Custer that was very accurate, whether it was pro-Custer, or anti-Custer.

Bill

I have got that vibe sometimes also. Did you see the movie? What did you think about it if so?

[Stillwater]

I have got that vibe sometimes also. Did you see the movie? What did you think about it if so?

No, I haven't seen the movie. Some how though, I wound up with two copies of the book.

I'll get the movie and see how I like it.

Bill

[Johnny McCrae]

I have this movie and always enjoy watching it. Although I've read several books about Custer and the Little Bighorn, I'm certainly not an authority by any means. In my humble opinion, it appears that "Son of the Morning Star" is one of the best movies that was made about Custer and the Little Bighorn.

Next month I will visit the "Little Bighorn Battlefield" in Montana again during my annual Sturgis trip.

[Harley Starr]

I've seen the movie and wish it was available on dvd and blu-ray. It's pretty detailed and shows Custer in a none biased manner.
Another note, I recently purchased a book on Custer's last days called Marching To Valhalla. It was written by Michael Blake, the author of Dances With Wolves.

[The Elderly Kid]

I found this film a welcome relief from the movies that portrayed Custer either as a shining paragon (They Died With Their Boots On), or as a psychopathic, homicidal lunatic (Little Big Man). I liked both movies, but each took an extreme view of Custer. SOTM portrays him as a flawed but well-intentioned man who, late in his career, made three bad mistakes and made them one right after the other, all on the same day. I did think that Rosanna Arquette was an odd choice to portray Libby Custer, but she was certainly easy on the eyes.

[kurt250]

johnny mccrea, little big horn is a great national park to visit. the museum i pretty good . just seeing it is a wonderful exsperence. bring some water with you. i always enjoy a trip out there. careful on those bikes. kurt250

[Rube Burrows]

Thanks everyone, for sharing your thoughts on the movie and other movies. I thought SOTMS was a pretty good movie myself and while I have not seen many movies about custer I did feel as though they tried to portray him in an unbias way. The 30min battel scene in the end was a nice visiual and to me, really captured what it must have been like.

I hope that you take some pics and post them of the Little Big Horn battlefield.

I recently found a website called Friendsofthelittlebighorn.com and found it to be very interesting.

[River City John]

I have not seen "Son of the Morning Star" in quite a while, but I do think it was the most accurate of the movie portrayals.

I just finished The Last Stand by Nathaniel Philbrick, which I found to be a very good read on the subject. (ISBN 978-0-670-02172-7)
It was the first time I had ever read of the theory, which I have come to believe as probable, that Custer's initial chest wound was through enemy fire but the killing temple wound was a mercy shot, most likely performed by his brother Tom towards the end. Tom's body was found very close to that of his brother, and various Cheyenne and Sioux accounts described that Tom was bravely fighting until practically the very last. (This also explains, as a sort of tribute to a brave warrior, the extreme state of mutilation upon Tom's body. It is also the first revelation of the actual extent of mutilation to Col. Custer's body that had been suppressed due to Victorian propriety. In addition to having his hearing improved by awls piercing his eardrums, he also had an arrow thrust up his penis. He had not been scalped nor otherwise mutilated. Of course he and another officer had mutually decided to cut their hair short before the campaign. Something many movies don't get right as flowing, blond locks make the image of Custer.)

I can also recommend The Official National Park Handbook, Custer Battlefield by Robert M. Utley, and the reprint of The Field Diary of General Alfred H. Terry - The Yellowstone Expedition - 1876. Both being smaller publications that offer some interesting facts and information to help flesh out the history and are easily digested.

I also offer this transcript of a lecture and discussion online of Little Big Horn conducted with Brian Pohanka, who sadly passed away several years ago.
(Sorry if this post of mine is getting a bit carried away. Obviously this subject is an ongoing interest of mine, too.   RCJ)  

                                        LITTLE BIG HORN
                 A QUESTION AND ANSWER HOUR WITH NOTED                  
               HISTORIAN AND RE-ENACATOR BRIAN POHANKA    
                                          (JANUARY 22, 1997)                    

LivnHist2:   SCHEDULED NEXT, IS A CHAT WITH GUEST BRIAN
POHANKA WHO WILL BE
DISCUSSING
LivnHist2:   LITTLE BIG HORN
BPhistry:   GLAD TO BE HERE -- LITTLE BIGHORN IS A
FASCINATING TOPIC

JDixon3240:   Is there a new Biography on Custer coming out
soon?
BPhistry:   WELL, YOU MAY BE AWARE OF JEFF WERT'S BIO -- I
DONT KNOW OF ANOTHER
ONE SOON
BPhistry:   SEVERAL FICTIONAL, HISTORICAL FICTION WORKS I
HAVE HEARD ABOUT
JDixon3240:   No I mean on TV
BPhistry:   OH -- A&E IS DOING A "BIOGRAPHY" EPISODE ON
CUSTER
BPhistry:   ALSO THERE IS MOVIE TALK OF THAT BRAD PITT AS
CUSTER FLICK
BPhistry:   WRITTEN BY MICHAEL BLAKE OF DANCES WITH
WOLVES FAME
BPhistry:   "MARCHING TO VALHALLA" THE TITLE OF BLAKE'S
BOOK
Jean22355:   are there going to be any biographies of other LBH
figures, i.e.
Tom Custer or Myles Keogh?
BPhistry:   WELL, KEOGH, A SPECIAL FAVORITE OF MINE, WAS
FEATURED IN A VERY

NICE BIO THAT A NUMBER OF US
BPhistry:   CONTRIBUTED TO
BPhistry:   PUBLISHED BY UPTON & SONS OF EL SEGUNDO, CA
BPhistry:   AND I DO KNOW A FELLOW IS WORKING ON A TOM
CUSTER BIO.GA
HoseyHT:   in what year was the grass fire after which many relics
were found?
BPhistry:   I THINK THE FIRE WAS IN 84-- THEY HAD A DIG IN 85,
AND THEN SEVERAL
THEREAFTER, THREE OF
BPhistry:   WHICH I WAS INVOLVED WITH. SOME MAJOR
DISCOVERIES, AND REVISIONS.GA
CivilWar49:   Brian...was there some problem with the arms carried by
Custer's
command?
BPhistry:   WELL, THERE ARE SOME ACCOUNTS THAT TELL OF A
JAMMING, OR SHELL
STICKING INTHE BREACH
BPhistry:   OF THE SPRINGFIELD CARBINES. BUT IN FACT VERY
FEW WEAPONS WERE THUS
DISABLED
BPhistry:   I THINK RENO MENTIONED ONLY 7 CARBINES
DISABLED, AND THE
ARCHAEOLOGY FOUND LITTLE IF
BPhistry:   ANY EVIDENCE THAT THIS WAS A FACTOR. I THINK TO
SOME IT WAS AN
EXCUSE. BUT I DO NOT
BPhistry:   THINK IT AFFECTED THE COURSE OF THE BATTLE
LivnHist18:   DO YOU THINK AMERICAS INTEREST IN CUSTER WILL
EVER WAIN?
BPhistry:   GOOD QUESTION. THERE IS CERTAINLY A PERENNIAL
INTEREST IN CUSTER
AND LBH.
BPhistry:   HE IS IN A SENSE A BAROMETER -- FROM HERO TO
VILLAIN, FROM BRAVE
COMMANDER TO MADMAN
BPhistry:   HE TELLS US MORE ABOUT OURSELVES AND OUR
SOCIETY THAN THE REAL
EVENTS --
BPhistry:   IN SHORT CUSTER HAS BECOME A SYMBOL. I AM
MORE INTERESTED IN THE
HISTORY MYSELF
BPhistry:   BUT HE IS CERTAINLY A FIGURE WHO INSPIRES BOTH
ADMIRATION AND
LivnHist7:   IS IT HARD TO RESEARCH FOR CUSTER WHEN THERE IS
SO MUCH MYTH ABOUT
HIM?
BPhistry:   IT IS INDEED HARD TO SLICE THROUGH THE MYTH
THAT SURROUNDS CUSTER
AND LBH LIKE SOME BIG SLAB
BPhistry:   OF FAT OR SOMETHING -- YOU HAVE TO CUT THROUGH
IT -- TO TRY TO GET
AT THE HEART OF HISTORY,
BPhistry:   WHICH IS THE TRUTH AS NEAR AS WE CAN COME TO
IT. BUT I THINK WITH
READING AND STUDY
BPhistry:   AND THOUGHT, WE CAN GET VERY CLOSE TO THE
TRUTH, TO HISTORY. GA
Missildawg:   Thank you. A few years ago an article appeared proposing
that
Custer's command was caught in
Missildawg:   an offensive rather than a defensive posture. Your
thoughts
BPhistry:   GOOD POINT. YES, I BELIEVE, BASED ON THE
ARCHAELOGY AND THE INDIAN
ACCOUNTS, THE POSTIONS
BPhistry:   OF THE DEAD SOLDIERS, ETC -- THAT WAS IT EXACTLY
-- HE WAS ON THE
OFFENSIVE, VERY
BPhistry:   CUSTER-LIKE -- UNTIL WAY TOO LATE. THAT IS WHY
HIS FIVE COMPANIES
BPhistry:   THE 5 COMPANIES THAT PERISHED WITH HIM -- WERE
SO SCATTERED. THEY
NEVER
BPhistry:   HAD TIME TO FORM A COHESIVE PERIMETER OF
DEFENSE. I THINK HE WAS SO
PRE-OCCUPIED
BPhistry:   WITH THE VILLAGE, OR RATHER THE INHABITANTS OF
THAT VAST INDIAN
VILLAGE,
BPhistry:   ESCAPING HIM, THAT HE CONTINUED NORTH WHEN,
IN HINDSIGHT, HE OUGHT
TO HAVE
BPhistry:   CONSOLIDATED HIS FORCES. I DO THINK HE WAS ON
THE OFFENSIVE UNTIL
ALMOST THE LAST 15 MINURTE
BPhistry:   THE LAST 15  MINUTES (SORRY) OF HIS LIFE. GA
Missildawg:   Thank you
Gen Mouton:   do u believe that Custer's order's where worded that
if he failed
he would get the blame and
Gen Mouton:   no credit if won
BPhistry:   WELL, GEN.M, SOME THINK THAT, SINCE GENERAL
TERRY WAS A VERY
TALENTED LAWYER, THAT
BPhistry:   HE DREW UP THOSE NOW INFAMOUS "ORDERS" WITH
SOMETHING LIKE THAT IN
MIND.
BPhistry:   I THINK IT IMPORTANT THAT WE REMEMBER THAT
MANY IN THE ARMY WERE
DOUBTFUL
BPhistry:   THAT THE SO-CALLED "HOSTILES" WOULD IN FACT BE
LOCATED, OR BROUGHT
TO BATTLE
BPhistry:   THAT SUMMER. IN RETROSPECT THERE IS A GOOD
DEAL TO QUESTION AND
PONDER
BPhistry:   IN THOSE "ORDERS" -- MORE LIKE VAGUE WISHES
ACTUALLY -- BUT I DONT
THINK THAT
BPhistry:   DENYING CUSTER CREDIT WAS PART OF TERRY'S
OBJECTIVE. I THINK HE
WANTED TO KEEP
BPhistry:   THE INSTRUCTIONS FLUID, AS BEFITTED THAT VAST,
SPRAWLING COUNTRY IN
WHICH THEY
BPhistry:   WERE CAMPAIGNING, AND ALL THE POSSIBLE
OCCURENCES. GA
Jean22355:   the Indian accounts of the battle were thought to be
unreliable.
how and why has that
ean22355:   view changed.
BPhistry:   GOOD OBSERVATION. FOR MANY YEARS THERE WAS I
SUPPOSE A WESTERN
ETHNO-CENTRIC VIEW
BPhistry:   THAT THE INDIAN ACCOUNTS WERE BY NATURE
"UNRELIABLE" AS THEY
SEEMED, TO WESTERN EYES
BPhistry:   CONTRADICTORY. BUT IN FACT, IF ONE REALIZES
THAT THE LAKOTA AND
CHEYENNE WARRIORS WERE
BPhistry:   ENTERING THE FIGHT AT DIFFERENT LOCATIONS AT
DIFFERENT TIMES, AND
THAT THEY
BPhistry:   TENDED TO INCORPORATE CERTAIN "ORAL HISTORY"
TRADITIONS FROM THEIR
TRIBAL GROUP
BPhistry:   IN THESE ACCOUNTS, AND THAT THEY FOUGHT NOT
(AS IN THE MOVIES) EN
MASSE BUT AS INDIVIDUALS
BPhistry:   OR SMALL GROUPS -- UNDERSTANDING THIS -- THEIR
ACCOUNTS ARE NOT
ONLY "TRUE" IN MOST
BPhistry:   CASES, BUT ABSOLUTELY VITAL TO AN
UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT HAPPENED AT
LBH. GA
MALINKS:   brian, could you comment on  the role the widows played
in making
the the battle of lbh a
MALINKS:   legend
BPhistry:   THE DISASTER WIDOWED SOMETHING LIKE 30 OR
MORE WOMEN, BOTH THE
WIVES OF OFFICERS AND
BPhistry:   OF ENLISTED MEN. OF COURSE LIBBIE CUSTER SPENT
THE REST OF HER LONG
LIFE HONORING
BPhistry:   THE MEMORY OF HER "AUTIE" -- AND BY OUTLIVING SO
MANY OF HIS
CRITICS, HELPED TO FIRMLY
BPhistry:   ESTABLISH THE CUSTER LEGEND. THE BATTLE WAS A
REAL TRAGEDY IN THE
PAIN TO THE FAMILIES
BPhistry:   BUT LIBBIE WAS NOT TO BE DOWNCAST FOREVER, AND
WAS REALLY A VERY
IMPORTANT FIGURE
BPhistry:   ALBEIT BEHIND THE SCENES, IN THE HISTORY THAT
HAS BEEN WRITTEN ON
THAT FIGHT.
BPhistry:   SHE WAS BOTH A CHARMING AND A FORMIDABLE
WOMAN. GA
Missildawg:   Your thoughts on Benteen's refusal to follow the written
"come
quick" order. A court martial
Missildawg:   offense
BPhistry:   WELL, YOU KNOW I THINK BENTEEN DID NOT HASTEN
AS MUCH AS HE COULD
HAVE, OR OUGHT HAVE, BUT
BPhistry:   SOME OF THAT IS HINDSIGHT. HAD HE KNOWN A
POTENTIAL DISASTER WAS IN
THE MAKING
BPhistry:   I THINK HE WOULD HAVE HASTENED. I THINK,
CYNICAL SORT THAT HE WAS,
HE THOUGHT
BPhistry:   CUSTER HAD SENT HIM OFF ON A WILD GOOSE CHASE,
ALSO HOW COULD HE
"BE QUICK" AND ALSO BRING
BPhistry:   THE SLOW MULE-BORN PACK TRAIN? WELL, HE SPENT
THE REST OF HIS LIFE
IN BITTERNESS
BPhistry:   AS A RESULT. MANY OF HIS FRIENDS DIED WITH
CUSTER THAT DAY. AND WE
MUST GIVE
BPhistry:   HIM CREDIT FOR REALLY BEING THE SOUL OF THE
DEFENSE -- RENO WAS
ESSENTIALLY
BPhistry:   SUPERCEDED BY THE SECOND DAY OF THE SIEGE. I
THINK, PERSONALLY,
THAT BENTEEN
BPhistry:   COULD HAVE RIDDEN, AS FAST AS PRACTICABLE,
WITH TWO COMPANIES, AND
LEFT
BPhistry:   ONE COMPANY TO GET THE PACKS UP. HAD HE DONE
SO, PERHAPS, JUST
MAYBE, THE OOUTCOME
BPhistry:   WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT. BUT I DONT THINK
ANYONE IN THE ARMY WAS
OUT TO
BPhistry:   COURTMARTIAL BENTEEN -- HE WAS TOO BRAVE, IN
THE DEFENSE, FOR THAT.
RENO WAS ANOTHER
BPhistry:   STORY, HOWEVER. GA
Missildawg:   Thank you
LWhite1864:   Other than the Archaeological study, what do you
think is the
best study of LBH?
BPhistry:   WELL, IT IS A BIT HARD GOING AT TIMES, BUT
RICHARD FOX'S BOOK ON
HISTORY, ARCHAELOGY &
BPhistry:   CUSTER'S LAST BATTLE IS WELL WORTH READING. I
WOULD HIGHLY
RECOMMEND ANYTHING
BPhistry:   THAT INCORPORATES THE WRITINGS OF WALTER
MASON CAMP.
BPhistry:   MORE THAN ANY OTHER HISTORIAN, CAMP, WHO
INTERVIEWED MANY VETERANS
OF LBH, WHITE AND
BPhistry:   INDIAN, WAS A MAN WHO PROVIDES US, TODAY,
WITH THE RAW MATERIAL
THAT WE CAN WORK WITH
BPhistry:   IN OUR OWN THEORIES OF THE BATTLE. SEVERAL
COLLECTIONS OF CAMP'S
WRITINGS
LORIDORY:   Q whats the next best book?
BPhistry:   HAVE APPEARED -- "CUSTER IN '76" EDITED BY KEN
HAMMER IS ONE; AND
UPTON & SONS HAVE
BPhistry:   PUBLISHED SEVERAL IN RECENT YEARS. GA
Jean22355:   back to the Indian accounts--what are some of the
best?
BPhistry:   WELL, I THINK WOODEN LEG'S ACCOUNT (CHEYENNE)
IS VERY GOOD --
THOUGH HE AT TIMES DESCRIBES
BPhistry:   EVENTS HE WAS TOLD OF RATHER THAN
PARTICIPATED IN, IT IS A VERY
GOOD ACCOUNT.
BPhistry:   CAMP COMPILED A NUMBER OF INTERVIEWS WITH
WARRIOR VETERANS -- AND
OF THOSE
BPhistry:   THERE ARE ANY NUMBER WORTH CONSIDERING. A
MAN NAMED ELI RICKER ALSO
DID SOME INTERVIEWS
BPhistry:   AND I WOULD RECOMMEND JOHN STANDS IN
TIMBER'S ACCOUNT TOO -- HE WAS
NOT A VETERAN OF LBH
BPhistry:   BUT THE CHEYENNE TRIBAL HISTORIAN, AND HIS
STORY HAS BEEN
PUBLISHED. GA

LivnHist7:   THERE WAS A TV SPECIAL "COURT MARTIAL OF
CUSTER",  CARE TO COMMENT
ON IT?
BPhistry:   THE "COURT MARTIAL OF GAC" WAS BASED ON A
NOVEL -- ONE OF THOSE
"WHAT IF" STORIES
LivnHist3:   BRIAN - ARTHUR ST. CLAIR LOST FAR MORE MEN IN
HIS MASSACRE IN 1791
THAN DID CUSTER
BPhistry:   -- I.E. WHAT IF CUSTER HAD SURVIVED....PERSONALLY
I FIND THIS KIND
OF THING
BPhistry:   DISPENSIBLE -- IT CONFUSES AN ALREADY
CONFUSING ISSUE -- I WOULD
RATHER THEY DID A SHOW
BPhistry:   ON THE (REAL) RENO COURT OF INQUIRY.GA
LivnHist3:   ARTHUR ST. CLAIR LOST FAR MORE MEN IN 1791 TO
LITTLE TURTLE THAN
DID CUSTER YET
LivnHist3:   THE LBH IS FAR MORE KNOWN - WHY DO YOU THINK
THAT IS?
BPhistry:   WELL, THE DIME-NOVELISTS, BUFFALO BILL'S WILD
WEST SHOW, AND ANY
NUMBER OF HOLLYWOOD
BPhistry:   DIRECTORS -- NOT TO MENTION ALL THE ARTISTS,
GOOD BAD & OTHERWISE
-- DID NOT DRAW
BPhistry:   INSPIRATION (OR MAYBE SEE A PROFIT) IN ST. CLAIR'S
DISASTER. I
THINK CUSTER WAS FIRMLY
BPhistry:   PLANTED IN THE MIND AND MEMORY OF GILDED AGE
SOCIETY -- FROM HIS
GLORY DAYS IN THE
BPhistry:   CIVIL WAR -- AND HIS DEATH, COMING AS IT DID AT
THE CENTENNIAL OF
THE US --
BPhistry:   GOT THE HEADLINES, AND STAYED THERE. THE
CONTROVERSY HELPED, TOO --
BPhistry:   SO I THINK THE "MEDIA" SO TO SPEAK, HAD A LOT TO
DO WITH THE
ONGOING FASCINATION
BPhistry:   WITH CUSTER AND LITTLE BIG HORN. GA
LORIDORY:   whos your favorite  charactor  of the story
BPhistry:   WELL, I WOULD HAVE TO SAY MYLES KEOGH IS
PROBABLY MY FAVORITE
CHARACTER
LORIDORY:   me too
BPhistry:   THOUGH THERE ARE MANY -- I HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT
A NUMBER OF THEM --
ANOTHER IS
BPhistry:   GEORGE YATES, CAPTAIN OF CO.F, WHO DIED WITH
CUSTER. YATES SERVED
WITH CUSTER
LORIDORY:   Q
BPhistry:   ON PLEASONTON'S STAFF IN THE CW -- WAS AN OLD
FRIEND -- I KNOW
YATES'S GRAND-DAUGHTER
BPhistry:   AND HAVE RESEARCHED MANY ASPECTS OF HIS LIFE
IN THEIR FAMILY
COLLECTION.
BPhistry:   BUT I THINK KEOGH WAS A FASCINATING AND
RATHER MYSTERIOUS FIGURE.
KEOGH OF COURSE
BPhistry:   WAS BUFORD'S FAVORITE AIDE IN THE CW. GA
Mass55th:   Is there a controversy over where Custer is buried? Isn't he
at
West Point?
BPhistry:   WELL, IN 1877, THE YEAR AFTER THE BATTLE, AN
EXPEDITION LED BY
CAPT. MIKE SHERIDAN
BPhistry:   -- BROTHER OF PHIL --
BPhistry:   WENT OUT TO RECOVER THE OFFICER'S BONES FOR
REBURIAL IN THE THEIR
RESPECTIVE HOMES
BPhistry:   AND APPARENTLY THEY HAD A VERY HARD TIME
FINDING MORE THAN A COUPLE
OF
BPhistry:   HANDFULLS OF BONES THOUGHT TO BE CUSTER'S.
THIS IS ODD AS CUSTER
WAS BURIED
BPhistry:   BETTER THAN MOST. BUT MOST WERE ONLY COVERED
WITH A SLIGHT
SCATTERING OF EARTH
BPhistry:   TERRY & GIBBON HAD SOMETHING LIKE 5 SHOVELS IN
THE WHOLE COMMAND
AND THE MUTILATED
BPhistry:   BODIES WERE DECOMPOSING IN THE HEAT -- BUT
CUSTER WAS BURIED WELL.
NONETHELESS
BPhistry:   I SUSPECT ONLY A PORTION OF HIM WOUND UP IN
THE GRAVE AT WEST
POINT. MANY
BPhistry:   GRAVES HAD BEEN OPENED AND SCATTERED BY WILD
ANIMALS. MAYBE THAT
HAPPENED TO
BPhistry:   CUSTER. THEY GOT A SKULL, PART OF THE SPINE, AND
SOME LONG BONES
LIKELY
BPhistry:   FROM THE ARMS -- BUT THAT WAS ABOUT IT. WE MAY
NEVER KNOW, UNLESS
SOMEONE EXHUMES
BPhistry:   THE GRAVE AT WEST POINT, WHICH I DO NOT THINK
WILL EVER HAPPEN. GA
Missildawg:   In relation to the phase of the Custer battle, could you
estimate
Weir's arrival time?
BPhistry:   WELL, CAPT. WEIR, COMMANDER OF CO.D, RODE OUT
TO THE HIGH POINT NOW
KNOWN AS WEIR
BPhistry:   POINT, WITHOUT ORDERS. FIRING COULD BE HEARD
AND HE THOUGHT RENO
AND BENTEEN
BPhistry:   OUGHT TO BE DOING MORE THAN THEY WERE.
EVENTUALLY THE OTHER
COMPANIES ALSO STARTED
BPhistry:   OUT AND JOINED HIM. I THINK WEIR REACHED THE
HIGH GROUND
BPhistry:   ABOUT 5:20 AND WAS THERE TILL MAYBE 6 PM OR SO
BPhistry:   I DO NOT THINK HE SAW ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE
LAST PORTION OF THE
FIGHT THOUGH.
BPhistry:   I DONT KNOW THEY COULD HAVE "SAVED" CUSTER. GA
LORIDORY:   name some Keogh books please cant find any i was at
120th aniv
BPhistry:   THE SINGLE BEST BOOK, REALLY THE ONLY GOOD
BOOK ON KEOGH, IS "MYLES
KEOGH: AN IRISH DRAGOON
BPhistry:   WITH THE 7TH CAVALRY" EDITED BY KURT COX, JOHN
LANGELLIER AND
MYSELF --
BPhistry:   INCLUDING MANY CONTRIBUTIONS BY EXPERTS ON
THE SUBJECT -- LIKE
FRANCIS
BPhistry:   TAUNTON, AN ENGLISHMAN, WHO DID A LOT OF
WORK ON KEOGH'S LIFE IN
IRELAND
BPhistry:   AND ITALY -- AND THIS WAS PRINTED BY UPTON &
SONS IN EL SEGUNDO, CA
A FEW
BPhistry:   YEARS AGO BUT IS AT THIS TIME OUT OF PRINT -- I AM
ENCOURAGING

UPTON TO
BPhistry:   REPRINT IT. MUCH WRITTEN ON KEOGH IS VERY
INACCURATE -- E.S. LUCE'S
BOOK
BPhistry:   FOR INSTANCE, FROM THE 1930S, IS VERY
INACCURATE. THE MAGAZINE
"GREASY GRASS"
BPhistry:   WHICH IS THE ANNUAL OF THE CUSTER BATTLEFIELD
HISTORICAL & MUSEUM
ASSOC. HAS
BPhistry:   ALSO PUBLISHED ARTICLES ON KEOGH AND MANY
OTHER FIGURES IN THE
BATTLE.
BPhistry:   MOST OF THE BEST STUFF ON KEOGH APPEARS IN
RATHER HARD TO FIND
THINGS LIKE
BPhistry:   THE JOURNAL OF THE ENGLISH WESTERNERS
SOCIETY....GA
Susieler:   History Channel has been running the Custer movie with
Robert Shaw,
what
Susieler:   do you thing of that one and are there any movies that are
at all
accurate
BPhistry:   WELL IN THINKING OF THE ROBERT SHAW CUSTER
FLICK THE TERM "SURREAL"
COMES TO MIND.
LivnHist18:   LOL
BPhistry:   IT IS SO WOEFULLY INACCURATE IT VERGES ON THE
BIZARRE.
BPhistry:   I DO NOT THINK "THE" CUSTER FILM HAS EVER BEEN
MADE. MOST ARE
PRETTY TERRIBLE
BPhistry:   AND THE SHAW FLICK IS ONE THAT TRANSCENDS
REASON. GA
LivnHist3:   WELLDOC IS NEXT PL;EASE
Welldoc:   Had GAC verbalized presidential plans before the battle
and could
this have been part of the
Welldoc:   following press coverage thich in turn created "the Custer
legend?
BPhistry:   THE THOUGHT THAT GAC MAY HAVE CHERISHED
PRESIDENTIAL AMBITIONS
STEMS FROM HIS
BPhistry:   ANTAGONISM TO THE GRANT ADMINISTRATION -- OR
THAT HE WAS IN THE
DOGHOUSE WITH

BPhistry:   THAT ADMINISTRATION --
BPhistry:   BUT ALSO FROM HIS TELLING HIS SCOUTS -- HIS
INDIAN ALLIES -- IN
ORDER TO GIVE THEM A PEP
BPhistry:   TALK SO TO SPEAK -- THAT IF THEY WON A GREAT
VICTORY HE WOULD BE
THEIR
BPhistry:   "GREAT FATHER" OR WORDS TO THAT EFFECT.
BPhistry:   IN FACT, IF HE DID SAY THIS, HE MOST LIKELY MEANT
HE WOULD BE
PROMOTED TO
BPhistry:   GENERAL (HE WAS ONLY A LT.COL. REMEMBER) -- BUT
LIKE CROOK HE HOPED
A
BPhistry:   VICTORY WOULD JUMP HIM TO GENERAL'S RANK --
BPhistry:   AND ALSO HE APPARENTLY WAS ONE OF MANY
ARMY OFFICERS WHO THOUGHT
BPhistry:   THE ARMY OUGHT TO BE RUNNING THE INDIAN
BUREAU RATHER THAN A BUNCH
OF
BPhistry:   CROOKED POLITICIANS -- SO HE MAY HAVE HAD THIS
IN MIND, TOO.
BPhistry:   THERE IS NO INDICATION THAT HE WAS IN ANY WAY
A SERIOUS CONTENDER
FOR
BPhistry:   THE PREISIDENCY -- IN FACT MUCH OF HIS RASHNESS,
OR PERCEIVED
RASHNESS
BPhistry:   WAS DUE TO THE FACT THAT HIS CAREER WAS REALLY
ON THE SKIDS AT THIS
POINT.
BPhistry:   I DONT THINK, EVEN GIVEN HIS AMBITION, HE WAS
"RUNNING FOR
PRESIDENT" AS SOME
BPhistry:   HAVE ALLEGED. BUT A GENERAL'S STAR, OR THE
INDIAN BUREAU -- THAT IS
POSSIBLE. GA
Welldoc:   Interesting, thanks.
KCAZA:   Do you think Custer himself ever made it as far as
Medicine Tail
Coulee as some report?
Welldoc:   Was Custer buried at any tine in the fenced in area at the
Battlefield?
BPhistry:   WELL CUSTER'S FIVE COMPANIES WERE ENGAGED IN
THE MEDICINE TAIL
COULEE AND NYE-CARTWRIGHT
BPhistry:   LUCE RIDGE SECTOR -- CUSTER MADE IT NEARLY
THREE MILES FURTHER
NORTH OF MEDICINE TAIL
BPhistry:   THE MAIN BATTLE WAS FOUGHT NORTH OF MEDICINE
TAIL. DID HE TRY TO
FORD THE
BPhistry:   RIVER AND ATTACK THE VILLAGE AT THE MOUTH OF
MEDICINE TAIL? SOME
THINK HE DID, SOME THINK
BPhistry:   IT WAS ONLY A FEINT, SOME EVEN THINK HE GOT
SHOT THERE...
BPhistry:   BUT I DO NOT BELIEVE HE WAS AN EARLY CASUALTY.
HAD HE BEEN FATALLY
WOUNDED
BPhistry:   KEOGH, AS NEXT IN RANK, WOULD HAVE TAKEN OVER
AND THE ADJUTANT AND
STAFF
BPhistry:   WOULD HAVE REPORTED TO KEOGH. BUT THE STAFF
WAS FOUND DEAD AROUND
BPhistry:   CUSTER ON THE HILL, AND KEOGH WAS FOUND DEAD
WITH HIS COMPANY.
BPhistry:   SO I THINK CUSTER LASTED INTO THE LAST PORTION
OF THE FIGHT, THOUGH
HE CERTAINLY WAS
BPhistry:   NOT (LIKE ERROL FLYNN) THE "LAST" MAN KILLED. GA

KCAZA:   Thank you
LORIDORY:   why do you like the story so ? tell us about the grey horse
troop
please also.
BPhistry:   I THINK THAT PART OF THE APPEAL OF LBH, TO ME, IS
CERTAINLY THE
MYSTERY AND TO AN
BPhistry:   EXTENT THE CONTROVERSY, TOO. BUT ALSO THAT IT
IS A TOPIC IN WHICH
ANYONE, NOT JUST
BPhistry:   ACADEMICS OR PROFESSIONAL HISTORIANS, CAN,
THROUGH RESEARCH,
THROUGH
BPhistry:   THOUGHT AND OPEN-MINDED THEORIZING -- TAKE US
CLOSER TO THE TRUTH.
IT IS A
THE INDIAN ACCOUNTS.
BPhistry:   MOST OF THE COMPANY, 28 MEN, DIED IN THE SO-
CALLED "DEEP RAVINE"
AND MANY THINK
BPhistry:   THEIR BONES ARE STILL DOWN THERE. IT IS ONE OF
MANY INTRIGUING
MYSTERIES OF THE CUSTER
BPhistry:   FIGHT -- ARE THEY IN THAT RAVINE, STILL, OR NOT?
GA
LORIDORY:   ill meet you there any time, what about
Welldoc:   Who is buried in the fenced in area at the battlefield, and
when?
BPhistry:   WELL, IN 1890 MARBLE MARKERS WERE SET UP BU
AN ARMY DETAIL
BPhistry:   SUPPOSED TO SHOW WHERE EVERY SOLDIER'S BODY
WAS FOUND.
BPhistry:   THERE WERE SOME PROBLEMS, THOUGH.
BPhistry:   FOR ONE THING, BY 1881, ALL THE BONES WERE
SUPPOSED TO HAVE BEEN
BPhistry:   GATHERED AND BURIED UNDER THE MONUMENT IN A
MASS GRAVE ON THE CREST
BPhistry:   OF CUSTER HILL. FOR ANOTHER, THE DETAIL HAD
SOMETHING LIKE 252
MARKERS WHEN ONLY
BPhistry:   210 MEN DIED WITH CUSTER'S FIVE COMPANIES.
ESSENTIALLY THEY SET UP
SPURIOUS
BPhistry:   MARKERS FOR RENO'S MEN ON CUSTER'S FIELD -- BY
MISTAKE -- WHICH
REALLY
BPhistry:   COMPLICATES THINGS. ALSO IN THE WAKE OF THE
FIRE AND IN THE
ARCHAELOGICAL SURVEYS,
BPhistry:   IT BECAME CLEAR THE DETAIL "MISSED" PORTIONS OF
MANY REMAINS AS
SKELETAL
BPhistry:   REMAINS WERE FOUND AND IN ONE CASE A NEARLY
COMPLETE SKELETON OF A
SOLDIER
BPhistry:   -- WITHIN THE FENCED IN AREA ARE THE MARKERS
SUPPOSED TO SHOW WHERE
BPhistry:   CUSTER AND THE MEN OF CO.F MADE THEIR "LAST
STAND" BUT THERE ARE
ABOUT
BPhistry:   10 TO 12 MORE MARKERS IN THE FENCED IN AREA
YOU MENTION THAN WERE
BPhistry:   FOUND ON THE HILL....ALSO CUSTER AND SIX OR SO
OTHER MEN ACTUALLY
WERE
BPhistry:   FOUND ON THE VERY TOP WHERE THE MASS GRAVE IS
-- SO EVEN CUSTER'S
MARKER
BPhistry:   IS NOT IN THE RIGHT PLACE. ALL THIS IS PART OF THE
CHALLENGE, AND
FUN, OF TRYING
Welldoc:   I think there are many artifacts there still.  In "58 my dad
took me
to the field - we found
BPhistry:   TO SORT OUT THE TRUTH OF THAT BATTLE! GA
Welldoc:   shell casings which we gage to the ranger.  Unfortunately
one cannot
go walking around now.
GenJBuford:   Sir, do you think Reno would have made a diff if
there ? instead
of in support? hail the 5th
LORIDORY:   what do you think of the "cemetary ravine theory"?
BPhistry:   THANKS GEN. B -- I THINK RENO REALLY WAS IN A
QUANDRY
BPhistry:   CUSTER HAD SENT THE ADJUTANT, COOKE, TO TELL
RENO THAT CUSTER WOULD
BPhistry:   SUPPORT HIM "WITH THE WHOLE OUTFIT" AND YET
WHILE RENO WAS CHARGING
BPhistry:   THE SOUTHERN END OF THE VAST INDIAN VILLAGE --
WITH ONLY175 MEN BY
THE WAY -- 35
BPhistry:   OF THEM INDIAN SCOUTS --
BPhistry:   CUSTER'S FIVE COMPANIES HAD IN FACT CONTINUED
NORTH ON THE OTHER
SIDE OF THE RIVER AND WERE
BPhistry:   NOT WITHIN WHAT RENO TOOK TO BE "SUPPORTING"
DISTANCE....
BPhistry:   IN THE SUBSEQUENT FIGHT RENO DID LOSE HIS HEAD -
- HAD HE KEPT
CHARGING,
BPhistry:   MAYBE HE WOULD HAVE MADE A DIFFERENCE BUT HE
ALSO MAY HAVE BEEN
ANNIHILATED....
BPhistry:   RENO WAS NEARLY WIPED OUT AS IT WAS ....
BPhistry:   HOWEVER HAD RENO CONTINUED TO HOLD IN THE
TIMBER, MAYBE HE WOULD
BPhistry:   HAVE TIED UP ENOUGH INDIANS SO THAT CUSTER
COULD HAVE STRUCK THE
SCATTERING
BPhistry:   NONCOMBATANTS -- IT WAS RENO'S CHAOTIC
RETREAT FROM THE TIMBER THAT
FIRED THE
BPhistry:   LAKOTA AND CHEYENNES TO DEEDS OF DARING THAT
RESULTED IN AN
UNPRECEDENTED
BPhistry:   VICTORY FOR THEM, AND DISASTER FOR THE US
ARMY. GA
BPhistry:   THANKS FOLKS
BJMarkland:   In relation to the "volley" firing heard by Reno's men.
BJMarkland:   Some have said that  firing couldn't have been heard
at
BJMarkland:   Reno's Bluff from Last Stand Hill and area due to
Weir's
BJMarkland:   Point so it must have come from the village area-can
you
BJMarkland:   address that?
BJMarkland:   In relation to the "volley" firing heard by Reno's men.
BJMarkland:   Some have said that  firing couldn't have been heard
at
BJMarkland:   Reno's Bluff from Last Stand Hill and area due to
Weir's
BJMarkland:   Point so it must have come from the village area-can
you
BJMarkland:   address that?
BPhistry:   WELL, I HAVE HEARD OF THAT THEORY....
BPhistry:   BUT, I WOULD THINK UNLESS TESTS WERE DONE WITH
100 TO 200 CARBINES
LORIDORY:   Q
BPhistry:   ON A DAY WITH ATMOSPHERIC CONDITIONS EXACTLY
LIKE THAT OF JUNE 25,
1876
BPhistry:   THAT SUCH A TEST, WHILE THOUGHT PROVOKING, IS
NOT A DEFINITIVE
EVIDENCE
BPhistry:   OF THIS....THAT IS MY OPINION, ANYHOW. GA
CW1865:   Brian, once and for all, did Custer's ego end up getting
him killed
at Little Big Horn?
BPhistry:   I THINK THAT WHILE CUSTER DID CERTAINLY HAVE A
BIG EGO, THAT HE HAD
NO CHOICE BUT
BPhistry:   TO RISK A DAYLIGHT ASSAULT --
BPhistry:   AS HE HAD FOUND THE TRAIL, FOUND THE VILLAGE
(OR KNEW THE
"HOSTILES" WERE IN THE VALLEY)
BPhistry:   AND HAD BEEN "OBSERVED" BY OUTRIDERS....
BPhistry:   IT WAS MURPHY'S LAW -- ALL THAT COULD HAVE
GONE WRONG DID FOR HIM
THAT DAY --
BPhistry:   HIS FAMED "LUCK" HAD DESERTED HIM
BPhistry:   BUT I THINK ANY MILITARY COMMANDER IN HIS
SHOES WOULD HAVE DONE
SOME THINGS VERY
BPhistry:   MUCH LIKE WHAT HE DID --- IN HINDSIGHT THEY ARE
RECKLESS AND FATAL
-- BUT
BPhistry:   IT WAS STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE -- FOR
INSTANCE THE DIVISION OF
A FORCE INTO
BPhistry:   SEVERAL ELEMENTS TO ATTACK, AND SO ON. I NEVER
LIKED CUSTER THAT
MUCH AS A PERSON
BPhistry:   BUT I RESPECT THE PROBLEMS HE FACED THAT DAY
AS A COMMANDER. GA
CW1865:   Well, he's a hero here in Michigan!  Thanks.
FlyerTomL:   There are reports of several men that fled the field and
were
pursued.  How far afield were
LivnHist3:   FLYER - YOU HAVER THE LAST QUESTION
FlyerTomL:   the soldiers from his companies found?  Thanks for the
discussion!
BPhistry:   ALMOST ALL OF THE 210 MEN WITH CUSTER PERISHED
ON OR NEAR THE
FIELD. SOME THINK
BPhistry:   1ST SGT. BUTLER OF CO. L MAY HAVE BEEN A
MESSENGER OR SOMETHING
BPhistry:   AS HIS BODY WAS FOUND 3/4 OF A MILE OR MORE
FROM THE BATTLEFIELD
BPhistry:   OR HE COULD, PERHAPS HAVE BEEN AN EARLY
CASUALTY DURING THE
APPROACH.
BPhistry:   SOME THINK CPL. FOLEY OF CO. C RODE OUT OF THE
FIGHT & WAS KILLED
-- AND SOME THINK
BPhistry:   2D LT. HARRINGTON, ALSO OF CO. C, DID THE SAME.
BUT THE MOST
INTERESTING
BPhistry:   IS NATHAN SHORT, INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH ALSO A
CO. C MAN
BPhistry:   WHO SOME THOUGHT GOT ALL THE WAY TO THE
ROSEBUD, MANY MILES AWAY.
BPhistry:   BUT IN RECENT YEARS THERE HAS BEEN DOUBT CAST
ON THIS, IF ANY BODY
WAS FOUND, OR
BPhistry:   IF IT WAS JUST A DEAD CAVALRY HORSE. THIS IS
ANOTHER OF THE
MYSTERIES.
BPhistry:   THANKS AGAIN ---
LivnHist3:   LADIES AND GENTLEMEN - A BIG ROUND OF
APPLAUSE FOR OUR ESTEEMED
GUEST


 

[buckskin billy]

i've seen the movie a couple of times. i think its a good western movie. don't know how authenic it was to custer.
i recomend three books by terry c johnson

long winter gone

seize the sky

whisper of the wolf

these books are good reads. i'm not certain how accurate they portray custer,  but they don't just focus on the little big horn battle. these books cover a good part of his military career

[Holden A. Grudge]

I started watching this movie for the very first time the other night.  I kept getting distracted thinking that Gary Cole as Custer looked very much like Ben Stiller in Dodgeball. 

I found that very distracting

[kcub]

For a minute I did a double take, I thought you said "Gary Coleman as Custer".

Very little big man.

[Henry4440]

I haven't read anything about George Armstrong Custer that was very accurate, whether it was pro-Custer, or anti-Custer.

Bill

Have you read A Terrible Glory: Custer and the Little Bighorn - the Last Great Battle of the American West
by James Donovan?

[kurt250]

i have the movie and have enjoyed it every time i've seen it. you have to go to the battlefield to really get the feel of the movie and whole story. i went in july, it was hot ,dry and a place that is full of ghosts. if you go take the time to walk the battlefield, bring plenty of water with you. you'll feel them around you. i'm not kidding. kurt250

[Will Ketchum]

i have the movie and have enjoyed it every time i've seen it. you have to go to the battlefield to really get the feel of the movie and whole story. i went in july, it was hot ,dry and a place that is full of ghosts. if you go take the time to walk the battlefield, bring plenty of water with you. you'll feel them around you. i'm not kidding. kurt250

I agree. When I walked the field 101 years and 1 day after the fight I could feel the fear.  It was spookey.

Will Ketchum