USMC/USN Persona's Wild bunch

[Grigori_Storri]

There is a Marine enlisted field uniform which was used by both sailors and marines during the time period at

http://www.wwiiimpressions.com/wwiusmc.html

they carry a later 1930's Officers mounted uniform.

http://www.wwiiimpressions.com/usarmydress.html


To keep within the timeline of the mexican revolution the US Navy along with a Marine expeditionary force took and held the port of Veracruz for seven months in 21APR1914. After President Wilson ordered a German military weapon supply convoy to be stopped from reaching the mexican port. this was called the Ypiranga insodent they spent thier time there fighting off Huerta's forces trying to take the port back.

These uniforms are not cheap but they are worth the investment.

http://www.wwiiimpressions.com/

[Grizzly Adams]

There is a Marine enlisted field uniform which was used by both sailors and marines during the time period at

http://www.wwiiimpressions.com/wwiusmc.html

they carry a later 1930's Officers mounted uniform.

http://www.wwiiimpressions.com/usarmydress.html


To keep within the timeline of the mexican revolution the US Navy along with a Marine expeditionary force took and held the port of Veracruz for seven months in 21APR1914. After President Wilson ordered a German military weapon supply convoy to be stopped from reaching the mexican port. this was called the Ypiranga insodent they spent thier time there fighting off Huerta's forces trying to take the port back.

These uniforms are not cheap but they are worth the investment.

http://www.wwiiimpressions.com/

In terms of US Navy uniforms, landing party personnel under arms always wore leggings.   While navy landing parties are sometimes pictured with a mixture of navy and marine uniform items, they most often worn the white or blue working uniform with leggings and necessary ammo belts.  In some situations, the service dress uniform with leggings would be worn.  At Veracruz, and in other theatres, landing parties often dyed their white work unform in coffee to affect a tan "camo" of sorts.  White makes a great tartget!

By the way, the US Navy uniform shown on the web site would not be correct for this period.   It is WWII.

[Grigori_Storri]

I do not remember seeing anything about blues and whites in my post. But if you saw it, I do not see it in the text. What I was refering too was the USMC Winter Green Uniform used in the field. Maybe this picture may help. BTW how is Ben, Mad Jack, and only Number Seven?

[Grizzly Adams]

I do not remember seeing anything about blues and whites in my post. But if you saw it, I do not see it in the text. What I was refering too was the USMC Winter Green Uniform used in the field. Maybe this picture may help. BTW how is Ben, Mad Jack, and only Number Seven?

Understood.   Sorry for the confusion!  Your post was right on.  The website  you linked to also shows WWII Navy uniforms.  The purpose of my post was to add to the information about Navy uniforms during this period and to note they are different than those shown on the link - should someone not be aware of the differences.

This pic shows a mix of USN/USMC uniform items



In the great biography of Rear Admiral Daniel Mannix called "The Old Navy" there is a chapter on the Vera Cruz Landing when he was a Lieutenant in the destroyer USS Warrington. Here is the relevant quote: "The landing  force shifted into improvised khaki (by boiling a suit of whites in coffee an excellent substitute for khaki can be made; we learned that in the Philippines) and wore their belts and bayonets, the belts filled with ball cartridges."

Sailors in "coffee camo."

[Grigori_Storri]

I remember these pictures from gradschool, You and I know Combat Photography was still being developed. Yeah they are wearing Dungarees in the first and Muted or Salty Summer Whites in the second. So that would tell me that the pictures were taken sometime after 1MAY1914. But there was a problem with the Skippers of the Fleet they did not like the beating up of the uniforms and they began to issue summer and winter Marine uniforms what ever they could get thier hands on at the time. These that were issued the marine uniforms were service and support crew. These were medics, mechanics, supply, admin specialist, so on and so forth to allow the regular marines to be freed up to actually do grunt work. It also gave the impression there were more Marines on the ground than there actually were. The using of Marine field uniforms was carried over to the first world war. This concept was retired until the Korean War with the exception of Pharmistist Mates.

To let you know why I know anything about the whole Mexican Revolution is I spent three years of my life in gradschool between the United States Mexico and Germany working on my thesis on the American involvement in the Mexican Revolution. Mexico had the largest availible resources. Truth and fact was it was our first secret war on foreign soil. I did my best to prove it, I graduated.

But Grizzly you did not answer how is the crew Ben Mad Jack and Ol' Number Seven. I remember that series you must have liked it too.

[Grigori_Storri]

I did find this tho while surfing around this morning.

http://history.navy.mil/library/online/uniform_history.htm#en6

gives a good text history of Naval uniforms.

[Grizzly Adams]

But Grizzly you did not answer how is the crew Ben Mad Jack and Ol' Number Seven. I remember that series you must have liked it too.

  I think they are hanging out on the vintage TV channel with the boys from Happy Days.   The moniker "Grizzly Adams" was bestowed on me by my Eskimo students when I was teaching in rural Alaska many moons ago.

Can't get that link to work, but think I have it somewhere in my bookmarks.

[Grigori_Storri]

Great, the kids knew who he was so that narrows their timeline to 1978-. We watched it, but my father who had just retired after 30 years active service hated what he called "the hippie hour" We watched it mostly to make him mad.

But to get back to the topic...

I did find a discription in the link I posted before that basic dungaree dress down work clothes in blue could be easliy done with dickie work pants and shirt. Dress down whites would still be a good humor ice cream mans uniform. The dixie cup hat with both blue and white for recruit to petty officer. A blue or white visor cap with proper cap badge for chief to officer.

The Leggings aka Gaitors question is full or half anyone can find tan US army half or full. Just white wash them, yes paint them with white paint. Who would know me you whoever reads this post?

Marine dress down summer would be Dickies khaki work shirt and pants. but for the campaign hat I have seen colorized pictures from the era some are brown and some are green. Was not there personally so I am not sure which one would be right.

[Grizzly Adams]

I did find a discription in the link I posted before that basic dungaree dress down work clothes in blue could be easliy done with dickie work pants and shirt. Dress down whites would still be a good humor ice cream mans uniform. The dixie cup hat with both blue and white for recruit to petty officer. A blue or white visor cap with proper cap badge for chief to officer.

The Leggings aka Gaitors question is full or half anyone can find tan US army half or full. Just white wash them, yes paint them with white paint. Who would know me you whoever reads this post?

Marine dress down summer would be Dickies khaki work shirt and pants. but for the campaign hat I have seen colorized pictures from the era some are brown and some are green. Was not there personally so I am not sure which one would be right.

Me neither!  I'm old, but not THAT old!

According to the 1913 regulations, the dungaree shirt was made from denim and was a jumper style.  Depending on the season, a flannel shirt with placket might we worn with the wool broadfall pants.

See the 1913 regulations, plate 24.  http://www.quarterdeck.org/uniforms/1913/1913%20Plates%2020-29%20Enlisted.pdf

I can find no photo evidence that this dungaree uniform was commonly used by ship's landing party personnel.  Indeed, this was during the period where sailors wore their dress blues for work top side - very doubtful they would have been sent ashore under arms in dungarees!  I have seen pics of sailors "coaling ship" dressed in undress whites - well, they used to be white!   The undress blue uniform top (overshirt) was fashioned from worn out dress overshirts, that had the piping and cuffs removed, and collars shortened - basically recycled for work.  The dress white top had the blue collar and cuffs with piping.  The  white undress uniform had the open pajama cuffs and short white collar.

The only description of leggings I find in the regs of this period are for "tan with a leather strap."  I find no mention of white leggings being used by landing parties, although they are shown for honor guards and shore patrol at later periods in history.  Not to say they didn't have them!

If a person wanted to develop a USN persona for Wild Bunch, I think a number of options would be appropriate.  1.  A working white undress uniform with leggings, 2.  A  white undress uniform dyed, or stained tan, with coffee or tea, and leggings.  3.  A   blue undress uniform with leggings and wool flat hat (hard to find!).  4.  A dungaree uniform as described in the regs would be fine, regardless of the lack of photo evidence! 5. As you noted, for certain ratings, the USMC uniform with USN rating badges would certainly be appropriate as well.  Of course, nothing would be wrong with wearing a dress uniform from either service if one could come up with one!  Unfortunately, modern USN uniforms are of a different design, and made from white polyester and black (not blue) gabardine wool.   That said, few people would know the difference!

Here's a link to an interesting site with a good collection of photos of the Navy and Marine adventure in Mexico.

http://www.thortrains.com/online/veracruz1.htm

[John Smith]

"The using of Marine field uniforms was carried over to the first world war. This concept was retired until the Korean War with the exception of Pharmacists Mates."

Just to be accurate the name of the rate was changed from "Pharmacists Mates" to "Hospital Corpsman" in 1948.

[Grizzly Adams]

"The using of Marine field uniforms was carried over to the first world war. This concept was retired until the Korean War with the exception of Pharmacists Mates."

Just to be accurate the name of the rate was changed from "Pharmacists Mates" to "Hospital Corpsman" in 1948.

Yes, and the red Geneva cross, which had been the a part of the rating badge for corpsmen for 50 years, was replaced in the rating badge with the original mark of the winged caduceus. 

[Grigori_Storri]

Griz, I think we have seen Dungarees on landing parties the picture you posted og the landing party on deck of USS South Carolina those men are wearing Dungaree shirts because the white and blue Navy jumper has a fantail collar and no flap close pockets. They are wearing a stander collar shirt with flap pockets dungarees and you never ever tuck your jumper into your tousers.

[Grizzly Adams]

Griz, I think we have seen Dungarees on landing parties the picture you posted og the landing party on deck of USS South Carolina those men are wearing Dungaree shirts because the white and blue Navy jumper has a fantail collar and no flap close pockets. They are wearing a stander collar shirt with flap pockets dungarees and you never ever tuck your jumper into your tousers.

Major, you may be right, although the shirt they are wearing appears to have button cuffed sleeves, while the USN dungaree shirt  had an open cuff.  My take is that the boys on the deck the South Carolina are wearing the USMC shirt.

Bye the way, I have a pard that does a USMC impression for WB, and he put his kit together at WalMart, using the dickie khaki work shirt and pants.  He gets a lot of compliments and inquires as to where he got the "uniform."  I have seen pics of a couple of different shirts being worn by Marines during this period.  Some look like the Spanish American war item, and others closer to WWI.  Do you know which version would have been most common during this period?  

Here's a neat clip from The Wind And The Lion of Marines and Bluejackets kicking some butt.  Pretty sharp looking outfit!

[John Smith]

Them were the days, off to fight in dress uniform, and bring the band along too.  Capt. Jerome was right handy with his sword.

[Grigori_Storri]

Smith your right, I landed in Panama DEC89 in my dress blues with a rifle company from 2nd Marines. I had gotten off a flight and recieved orders and my seabag got packed in the 141 and was inroute to Panama before I could change I felt over dressed upon arrival. I had no one to thank but the department of the navy for that one. Was not the only time I looked like an As*

Griz I have been doing some eyeball shopping around at some images online. The more I look and the more I see I would have to say that the military overall was going through the changes as we grew just like uniform changes in last ten years. From the woodland to the digital partterns. Think it took four years to convert completely to digital this time in our modern military.

Now getting back to the pictures I have seen online. I have seen shirts that are half button down some that are full button. I hate to say this but I believe either form of uniform would work. Mostly because of Guard and Reserve forces activated, whose weapons and equiptment were not updated when regular forces got new issue.

I did find this site that has a good picture of the difference in uniforms used in Philippine's

http://www.morolandhistory.com/05.PG-Kris-vs-Krag/3.american_longarms.htm

Not sure about the date of the picture but you will see it.

[Grizzly Adams]

Smith your right, I landed in Panama DEC89 in my dress blues with a rifle company from 2nd Marines. I had gotten off a flight and recieved orders and my seabag got packed in the 141 and was inroute to Panama before I could change I felt over dressed upon arrival. I had no one to thank but the department of the navy for that one. Was not the only time I looked like an As*

Griz I have been doing some eyeball shopping around at some images online. The more I look and the more I see I would have to say that the military overall was going through the changes as we grew just like uniform changes in last ten years. From the woodland to the digital partterns. Think it took four years to convert completely to digital this time in our modern military.

Now getting back to the pictures I have seen online. I have seen shirts that are half button down some that are full button. I hate to say this but I believe either form of uniform would work. Mostly because of Guard and Reserve forces activated, whose weapons and equiptment were not updated when regular forces got new issue.

I did find this site that has a good picture of the difference in uniforms used in Philippine's

http://www.morolandhistory.com/05.PG-Kris-vs-Krag/3.american_longarms.htm

Not sure about the date of the picture but you will see it.

I agree.  This might be especially true for Marines aboard ship, where such things might remain in stores for a while.

The great thing about the 1900  - 1916 time frame is the wide variety of options available for USN/USMC, as well as US Army uniforms.  Your basically looking at Span American war to pre-WWI.