Please help with any information on this Spencer? *** Photos Added ***

Dale Spencer · July 14, 2010, 09:49:20 PM

Hi Everyone, I got this Spencer out of the attic (what we called the Old Chamber) after my Grandparents passed away. According to Two Flints it may have been in the 2nd NY Calvary Volunteers, Company M. I know it was converted over to center fire, but could that have been in the factory, or would it have to be later. It bears a "&" at the rear of the chamber?

Any way Two Flints should have the pictures available for everyone to see soon. I'm hoping to be able to fire it but am having a hard time locating a gunsmith in Tucson, Az. That will look at it and let me know. I don't want to load it and then have it blow up in my face. Any information you-all can tell me would be great.

Also any thoughts on the crack in the magazine tube by the screw? Best way to have it repaired?

Thanks everyone,

Dale (Photos appear below)

(Photos added by Two Flints)

Dale Spencer

Trailrider · July 14, 2010, 10:34:20 PM

So far as the centerfire conversion is concerned, there have been several designs by individuals plus the ones marketed by S&S Firearms in New York. I remember one project published in Shooting Times back in the early '60's. Probably have to see good photos of the breechblock removed from the receiver to give an opinion on which version. Of course, it might have been a contemporary conversion by an individual gunsmith OR Spencer himself. Hard to tell...

DJ · July 20, 2010, 07:42:42 AM

The "&" marking was used on modern-made centerfire upper breechblocks. I believe S&S Firearms used that mark, but not sure. The rest of the gun looks like an original Civil War M1860. The points I'm looking at to make that determination are the nonbeveled hammer nose, the war-era rear sight, and the sharp edges where the edges of the receiver meet the breechblock. The forend looks like it might be original, based on its general appearance (and near as I can tell from the photos). The buttstock somehow looks to be a repro--again, that's my impression from looking at the coloring and condition where it meets the receiver. The follower looks original, and I echo the common wisdom that you should get or make a replacement follower with a flat nose to reduce the possibility of detonating a cartridge in the magazine if you end up shooting it with centerfire ammo. Also, you will want to conclusively determine the caliber before proceeding. If all original, it *should* be .56-56, but the centerfire breechblock at least suggests that it might possibly have been converted at some point to a different caliber.
--DJ

Trailrider · July 20, 2010, 10:40:48 AM

My S&S CF breechblock does NOT have the ampersand marking. It appears to be an = sign, but is very light, if that is an equals sign at all. Might be useful to remove the block/lever assembly (unscrew the main pivot screw and the whole assembly drops out. Photograph and post the right side of the block and firing pin assembly. That may tell if it is an S&S.

Dale Spencer · July 20, 2010, 11:28:22 AM

Thanks all for your insights. I will remove the block/lever assy and get more pictures. Are there any other pictures I can take that would be helpful? I'm still having trouble finding a gunsmith, everyone around Tucson doesn't want to touch anything as old as this rifle is. May have to send it off to be looked at. Anyone have a good gunsmith that might look this over for me?

DJ · July 20, 2010, 02:59:38 PM

Dale wrote: "Are there any other pictures I can take that would be helpful?"

Knowing the barrel length would help (should be either 20" or 22" if original length), and maybe some additional photos of the wood if you're trying to determine whether they're original. Description of the number of lands and grooves in the bore might also help. Is the tab on the back of the magazine follower grooved or smooth (the part that would be against your shoulder with the follower installed in the butt)?

As for the crack in the magazine follower, I have seen a few like that. There could be lots of causes, but I suspect pulling the follower back and letting it slam forward under spring pressure accounts for many of them.

All that said, it still looks like an M1860 to me.

--DJ

Herbert · July 20, 2010, 06:31:09 PM

the breachblock is identical to 8 I have bought of S&S ,all had the & mark were yours is marked,the carbine is a unaltert 1860 modle,Springfield ones have very notisible modifications ,Stabler cutoff instaled,hammer noses and receiver tops were roundedand most were relined with a 3 groove liner and new inspection marks were stamped on the left side of the butstock ESA,LCA,TJS,ECW inside a rectangle,yours seems to have been overcleaned at one time partialy destroying the markings,this is what they look lick after they were repared at Springfield or could just been overcleand by previous oner,it is a very nice carbine and would make a good shooter if the rifling is still good although it is not as easy as reloading for the 56-50,the crack in the magizine tube is no big deal and can be fixed easily,JB weld or brazing would be fine or if you know somone with a mini-tig welder

Jobe Holiday · August 02, 2010, 11:20:03 PM

The ampersand mark is the production approval mark of S&S Firearms registered with the N-SSA. When the S&S reproduction breech block is marked with the ampersand the Spencer Rifle, or Carbine, using it does not require an Individual Approval by the
N-SSA's Small Arms Committee. In the past S&S has offered the breech block with, or without, the ampersand to the open market.

JH

Herbert · August 03, 2010, 12:42:53 AM

I just noticed your magazine follower is the original round nose one,if you are planing to shoot this carbine as a repeater I suggest you either grind a flat on the nose or get one off the S&S center fire ones or make a new concave nose one

Four Sixes · August 03, 2010, 08:56:37 PM

"Also any thoughts on the crack in the magazine tube by the screw? Best way to have it repaired?"

Dale

I have the same problem with my spencer magazine loading tube. I am not sure for the Spencer carbine, but my original spencer rifle can use the magazine tube from my repro Armi-Sport Spencer rifle. This way I don't have to worry about it when I am shooting plus I don't have to alter the original part. Hope this help

One thing I notice on the hammer is that while shooting the CF block, the inside part of the hammer is danned as it hit the metal part that puch the firing pin out. Is that normal?

Does anyone experience similar problem with the hammer using the CF block?

4-sixes

Herbert · August 03, 2010, 11:55:38 PM

I am not sure what you mean by (the inside part of the hammer is danned as it hit the metal part that punch the firing pin out)could you explain it another way

Roscoe Coles · August 08, 2010, 01:32:50 PM

Where did you get my gun? Oops, mine is still in the safe! Kidding aside, it looks just like mine. As others have mentioned its an S&S block and the gun itself is in very nice shape. As far as repairing the crack in the magazine follower assembly goes, I would not touch it. They tend to crack there but, since you can't use the original follower with centerfire ammunition anyway, I would recommend buying a complete centerfire unit from S&S to shoot and leave the original alone.

Four Sixes · August 08, 2010, 02:35:23 PM

Quote from: Herbert on August 03, 2010, 11:55:38 PM
I am not sure what you mean by (the inside part of the hammer is danned as it hit the metal part that punch the firing pin out)could you explain it another way

Hope this picture help explaining what I was talking about

(photo Posted by Two Flints)

Herbert · August 08, 2010, 05:58:49 PM

Yes ,this genrally caused by the pecusion bar in the centerfire block being slitly too long,when the block comes from S&S there is a pamphlet that explaines the fiting of the block ,you will have to get in touch with S&S for these instructions,but it simply sayes that when the percusion slide is fully foeward it should be levell with the cut in the frame that the hammer comes to rest in,also dry firing can cause burrs on the block and hamer,remove these when adjusting the slide,if your hammer is sitting properly when at rest it has worne its selfe in and will only need removing of any burrs

Dale Spencer · August 09, 2010, 08:45:54 PM

Hi all! Been away for a bit, but am back now. Still haven't found a gunsmith, but have decided now to slug the barrel myself. I have also learned how to do a chamber cast, so will let you know how that goes also. Now as far as the rifling goes, there are 6 rifling grooves in the barrel. I believe that is what the original barrels had. The condition of the barrel shows some pitting, but that is probably normal for a black powder weapon this old? I'm sending Two Flints some more pictures so you-all can see the block, and the stock better. I'm also including pictures of the complete carbine also. In answer to one of the posts, the magazine tube has a smooth surface when locked into position on the butt plate. The butt plate is smooth also. I really appreciate all the feedback on this and am looking forward to firing it. It looks though I'll have to learn how to reload before that happens, as I don't think anyone makes the ammo, or do they? Thanks for all your insights.

(Photos added by Two Flints)