Spencer M1865 Serial Number

[JoeReb]

Hello Two Flints,

I have been having a blast reading the posts from fellow SSS members.   I would like to ask if you could look up the serial number on my M 1865 carbine in your research volumes.  The # is 13006-.  Is the "dash" behind the # normal? 

JoeReb

[Two Flints]

JoeReb,

Your M1865 Spencer Carbine was never used during the Civil War.  It was delivered too late to be issues to any Union units.  I posted "Notes" in an earlier thread that you started that indicated some "maybe" history for your M1865.  It was most probably stored in a Federal Warehouse and later sold on the civilian market.



Read "Notes" #1 and #3 as these probably apply to your Spencer Carbine M1865.  If I am wrong on the above comments, SSS members will provide more accurate information.

Two Flints

[JoeReb]

Two Flints,

I recieved the info and very much appreciated it.  I was thinking that the info was more was and you might have had a serial number listing for my gun.  I thought maybe I could tie it to a cavalry unit somewhere as many others have, but just to own it makes no difference to me what the history.  I was just trying to see if I could narrow it down a bit.  Thanks again for your hard work with the SSS and education about the Spencer.

JoeReb 

[Two Flints]

JoeReb,

A long shot you might try, if you have lots of time, do a Google search with phrase "Spencer Carbine M-1865" and you might get hits with the various on-line auction sites that have M-1865 Spencers for sale.  They usually list serial #s with their Spencers For Sale and a brief history of that particular Spencer.  If their serial # is close to your serial #, you might be able to presume some connection or related history.

Sorry I couldn't give you more help with your Spencer M-1865 Carbine.  Herbert, where are you on this one

Two Flints

[JoeReb]

Roger That Two FLints, I'll give her a try...Thanks!

Joe Reb

[Herbert]

The 1865 Spencers were not isued in any order ,most were in store when the new cavelry units were armed with new spencers,so they could have been isued with any serial No as there was a lot more Spencers available than needed,one without a inspection mark in such good condition segests it was one of the private sales,ither to Canada or the publick,the only way you would be able to track the use of a paticular carbine would be to find the regimental and unit records of units isued these carbines,that would take a dedicated resercher and probley a permision from army records ,but knowing the army the records would be somwear that does not make sence

[Trailrider]

The 1865 Spencers were not isued in any order ,most were in store when the new cavelry units were armed with new spencers,so they could have been isued with any serial No as there was a lot more Spencers available than needed,one without a inspection mark in such good condition segests it was one of the private sales,ither to Canada or the publick,the only way you would be able to track the use of a paticular carbine would be to find the regimental and unit records of units isued these carbines,that would take a dedicated resercher and probley a permision from army records ,but knowing the army the records would be somwear that does not make sence

Records of what types of small arms were issued to what units are (were, anyway) available from the National Archives & Records Service.  If you want a "complete" set, you need to order the 35mm microfilm roll(s).  They go from sometime during the Civil War (War Between the States to my cousin from Atlanta) to June of 1876.  There, they stop, dispite the probability that records were kept after that!    Where the rest of them went, I don't know, and I have been trying to find them, off and on, for the last forty years!

Unfortunately, the records are NOT complete.  For example, there are gaps in the 1867 period, which prevents me from determining if there was a company of the 7th Cavalry stationed at Ft. Hays, from which Forsyth's Scouts departed.  The records pick up AFTER the Beecher Island battle.  They are fairly complete from then on until June 1876.

Also unfortunate is the fact that NO SERIAL NUMBERS WERE RECORDED, only types and calibers of the small arms reported on hand by regiment and then by company at the various posts. There are overlaps in the issuance of both long arms and pistols, as the different types were issued, as available.  For example, companies of the 7th Cavalry, between 1866 and 1872, were stationed in the Southern Plains posts.  Some had M1860 Spencer Carbines, cal. 54 (.56-56) and some companies had M1865's, cal. .50 (.56-50).  These were NOT intermixed within a company, however.

The Third Infantry was also stationed at Ft. Hays, KS, and 1st Lt. Fred. H. Beecher, Acting Assistant Quartermaster, 3rd Inf., was stationed there and was apparently so liked by the troopers of the 7th Cav. that they presented him with a sporting rifle (I believe it was a Hawken)!  NOTE: The Third Infantry was the ONLY infantry unit west of the Mississippi armed with repeating RIFLES, and those were M1860 Spencer Repeating Rifles w/Triangular Bayonet, NOT carbines.  Question: (unanswerable from the records or lack thereof)  Did Beecher issue Rifles to Forsyth's Scouts (of which he was 2nd in command until KIA at Beecher Island) from 3rd Inf. stores?  Or Carbines from 7th Cav equipment?  Since Forsyth mentions "rifles" in his narrative of the "scout", and although 50 years later, would be expected to differentiate between carbines and rifles, it may well be that at least  some of them were Spencer rifles.

Hopefully, this won't be too off-topic, nor discouraging to you.  If only these guns could talk...

[Herbert]

If the US army records were anything licke the British system a good place to find indivial serial Nos of arms isued would be at company level,the troops were responsible for there personal wepons and if damaged or lost the troops would have to explain and if a good reason could not be given the cost would be deducted from there pay,so each solder had his wepons No recorded and wepons were inspected by the company armourer when orderd,I do not know weather the US used this system but it was used by most countries,unfortuntly these records were often cept on skool exicise books and not stored properly,the paymaster would also have a copy but the same aplyes though they oftern turn up if you dig hard enough into regimental records,though in Australia you have to have clerance,It may be easier in the US

[JoeReb]

Herbert, Trailrider,

Thanks a lot for your input.  This seems like a monumental task as # 13006- could be one of many not recorded anywhere.  If I could narrow down the roster lists, I might have a shot, or just be happy to own a piece of history (whatever it may be).  The gun does not look to me like it has seen rough service, although I still have some question about the absence of cartouches, and the fact that it has many light scratches on the buttstock that look as if it were hand sanded at some point by someone other that the manufacturer.  I could be wrong, but the fore grip looks like it may have had a finish of some sort a one time.  The buttstock looks as if it was refitted at a later date hence possibly the reason for the absence of inspectors marks.  I don't know, either way, I'm just lucky to have it and in such good condition .  I payed $3000.00 for it.  Does that sound like too much  I always heard with an antique gun that it is worth whatever the seller will sell it for, and for whatever the buyer wants to buy it for.

JoeReb, GGGG Grandson of Capt. Benjamin Spencer, CO, 44th Tennessee,CSA, present at Appomattox Courthouse during surrender of the Army of Northern Virginia.  Unfortunantly, no direct relation to C.M. Spencer.
 
PS: Trail Rider: That would be "The War of Northern Aggression" for us Virginians by the way

[Trailrider]

As "Bobby Ray" said in the movie, "Sweet Home Alabama," "When the South died, it became immortal!" 

[Steve Sawyer]

Hi ALL

I have a spencer M1865 Serial # 18416   Does anyone have any records on it

Steve