Killing power of Big Lube®LLC bullets.

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy gang,

Since I was guilty of hijacking the thread on the viability of using Lemon Juice as a tumbling adjunct, I'm starting this thread.

Now, as to the killing abilities of BL bullets. . . .  It's still physics and ballistics.  Most BL bullets are short range propositions.  They are fine out to as much as 200 yards but you had better know your distance and bullet drop.  Bullet placement becomes a more important issue than actual bullet impact killing power.

All that said, most White Tail Deer in Wisconsin are killed inside of 50 yards with the majority of those within 50 feet.  Cover can be thick, deer quick and tracking. . . well, not easy.  You want your game to die promptly.  I shoot 44 Magnum (known in SASS circles as 44 ELR or 44 Extra Long Russian).  A compressed charge of FFFg Schuetzen under a 200 soft cast Mav Dutchman Big Lube®LLC bullet works for me.  When I'm in my cabin/stand and may have a shot as much as 250 yards out, I use my Mauser K98 custom rifle chambered in .257 Durham Jet that moves a 100 grain pill along at 3200 feet per second.  That makes a 250 yard shot, and anything in between, a  point blank shot with no hold over.

My choice of guns depends on the cover I'm hunting.  I'd never recommend pistol caliber rifles for any long range deer killing.  For short range heavy cover, they can't be beat.  Pick yer poison to fit your mission.

DD-DLoS

[Blackpowder Burn]

Right on target, Dick.  I've been working with my 38-55 and 45-70 lever guns with black powder and BL bullets.  We recently set up a 200 yard lever gun silhouette range on our CAS range and shooting it has been illuminating.  I've convinced myself that BP rifles really are about a 125 yard proposition for hunting unless you are very good at range estimation and holdover.  For instance, I can hit the 50 yard chicken and 100 yard pig with a dead on hold.  However, by the time you shoot at the 200 yard ram, it requires about 36 inches of hold over.  After going back to the ballistics calculators, they pretty clearly indicate you can sight for a maximum point blank distance of about 125 yards with these cartridges (their trajectories are virtually identical).  Beyond that, you're getting into "hope and pray" territory unless you are a much better shot than I am.

Now all of this has nothing to do with "killing power", only the ability to hit what you're aiming at.  A 45 caliber 400 grain flatpoint even at 800 fps has more energy than a 45 Colt revolver stuck in your belly.  And I don't think many critters (me included!) would want to experience that.

[Noz]

There is an excellent article called "Wounding" that was at one time on the internet. My link no longer works. I have the data in a word processing file but that file is obsolete. If I can retrieve it I will publish it on this forum.
It de-bunks the theory of "energy dump" and the concept of the most desirable bullet being the one that stops under the hide on the off side. The idea of Kinetic energy as it applies to terminal ballistics is a mass of misinformation. It is an excellent selling point because since the velocity is squared in the formula, a small increase in velocity makes a remarkable increase in the numbers written on the side of the box.
The most desirable bullet is one that remains intact, either starts at a large diameter or expands to a large diameter, has a wide flat nose and transects the heart lung area of an animal.

[Noz]

I did retrieve most of the article and have sent Part 1 to DD.

I'll allow some one else to make the call as to whether it belongs on the forum, because of it's length.

[Springfield Slim]

Can you post a link to the article for the rest of us who are interested?

[Noz]

If you are interested, I can e-mail it to you in 4 pieces.

[Fox Creek Kid]

...It de-bunks the theory of "energy dump"...

...The idea of Kinetic energy as it applies to terminal ballistics is a mass of misinformation...

That is subjective opinion and not fact. There are many people who have shot human beings with +p+ 9mm and .357 SIG who would argue that you are wrong.   However, this is a BP Forum and not the place for terminal ballistics discussion.

[Dick Dastardly]

It's my opinion that any of the BL bullets will kill cleanly if accurately placed.  For more penetration go with more sectional density and a harder bullet.  For quick expansion go with a softer bullet.  Regardless, bullet placement is number ONE.

Probably the all around best killer of white tail deer would be either the DD 38-55 255 grain or the DD/PRS 45-400.  I've used my little Browning 92 in 44 Magnum with a compressed charge of FFFg Schuetzen under a dead soft Mav Dutchman Big Lube®LLC bullet with complete satisfaction.  But. . . The deer was close in heavy cover.  For more open shots I prefer my custom .257 Durham Jet K-98 Mauser with the 1.5-6 power 30mm Kahles scope.

Deer hunting ain't Cowboy Action shooting.

DD-DLoS

[Springfield Slim]

mwwhyte1 (AT) verizon.net

[john boy]

Gents, I would not be afraid of wounding out to 100yds with the MK-III.  On my Pedrsoli, the vernier is Zero MOA, so no fiddling needed


... 62 - 64 - 65 grs Goex CTG produced the smallest groups


Here's another MK-III  at 100 with a Uberti HiWall:

... 68.5 and 70grs Swiss 1.5

[litl rooster]

It's my opinion that any of the BL bullets will kill cleanly if accurately placed.  For more penetration go with more sectional density and a harder bullet.  For quick expansion go with a softer bullet.  Regardless, bullet placement is number ONE.

Probably the all around best killer of white tail deer would be either the DD 38-55 255 grain or the DD/PRS 45-400.  I've used my little Browning 92 in 44 Magnum with a compressed charge of FFFg Schuetzen under a dead soft Mav Dutchman Big Lube®LLC bullet with complete satisfaction.  But. . . The deer was close in heavy cover.  For more open shots I prefer my custom .257 Durham Jet K-98 Mauser with the 1.5-6 power 30mm Kahles scope.

Deer hunting ain't Cowboy Action shooting.

DD-DLoS

so with all that in mind.  Do you carry more than one weapon to the field?  Not trying to be a smart ass. Cause I have carried 2 smoke poles to the woods one in hand one slinged. For two different type shots once I was in a stand, not for a rapid reload

[Dick Dastardly]

I do sometimes pack two rifles.  One stays in the cabin/stand and the other goes on walkabout with me.  Sometimes with only one of my 44 Magnum RVs on my hip if the walk is in tough cover as in creek bottom tangles.

My Grandpa would find me extravagant.  He did it all with his Winchester 94 38-55.

DD-DLoS

[litl rooster]

I do sometimes pack two rifles.  One stays in the cabin/stand and the other goes on walkabout with me.  Sometimes with only one of my 44 Magnum RVs on my hip if the walk is in tough cover as in creek bottom tangles.

My Grandpa would find me extravagant.  He did it all with his Winchester 94 38-55.

DD-DLoS

I would think the 38-55 would be a great all around caliber like the 30-30 and if I could only have one gun to hunt with one of those two would do.

[Delmonico]

There is an excellent article called "Wounding" that was at one time on the internet. My link no longer works. I have the data in a word processing file but that file is obsolete. If I can retrieve it I will publish it on this forum.
It de-bunks the theory of "energy dump" and the concept of the most desirable bullet being the one that stops under the hide on the off side. The idea of Kinetic energy as it applies to terminal ballistics is a mass of misinformation. It is an excellent selling point because since the velocity is squared in the formula, a small increase in velocity makes a remarkable increase in the numbers written on the side of the box.
The most desirable bullet is one that remains intact, either starts at a large diameter or expands to a large diameter, has a wide flat nose and transects the heart lung area of an animal.

Most is dribble written by folks who need to make a living writing dribble.  Any animal is killed by shutting the O₂ off to the brain.  Either you run the blood running to the brain dry by channeling it to where it's not supposed to go, or you shut the pump (heart) off by destroying it or shutting off it's electrical connection, also know as the nervous system.  Since this sometimes takes a few minutes, it is good to have a bullet that exits the body since exit holes bleed well and leave a trail to follow, entrance holes seldom do. 

With some of the articles I've seen over the years in the newstand mags, it makes me wonder if some of these "energy dump" folks have ever tracked a wounded animal or just let the guide do it. 

[The Elderly Kid]

DD,
How many grains of FFFg in that .44 Mag load of which you spake?

[Bryan Austin]

Real Hunters don't shoot at anything further than 200 feet. It just ain't sporting! 

[john boy]

Real Hunters don't shoot at anything further than 200 feet. It just ain't sporting!

Jack, ya callin me out as not being a sportsman? 
My last deer, 8 pointer in 1993, went down like a sack of flour from a 308 bullet at a measured 269 yards!

[Bryan Austin]

hehehe my last one went down from a lucky shotgun blast shot from about 50 feet! Ya gotta be a good hunter to let one come in that close......stealthy I tell ya....stealthy!

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy The Elderly Kid,

My hunting ammo is loaded exactly like my SASS main match ammo.  That is, a compressed charge of FFFg under a Mav Dutchman Big Lube®LLC boolit.  Same lube, same brass, same primer.  I like warthog loads.  I pay more attention to bullet alloy for my hunting loads than I do for SASS shooting.

I've weighed the powder and find that it has varied from as little as 30 grains to as much as 35 grains depending on powder manufacturer and batch and brass manufacturer.  I'm shooting exclusively Schuetzen FFFg now and the compressed charge of that weighs 34 grains.  I compress with the bullet when I seat it and use a good crimp followed by a LEE factory crimp die.  It would be possible to exceed that charge weight by using a separate compression die but I've not seen any advantage on paper or over the graph.

My ammo doesn't exceed SASS maximum velocities, but it does push the limit.

DD-DLoS

[Bryan Austin]

It would be possible to exceed that charge weight by using a separate compression die but I've not seen any advantage on paper or over the graph.

I use a compression die that I made when compressing to .20 with Goex FFF. If I try to compress with the bullet, it deforms the head of the bullet by imprinting a circle on the head side of the bullet. (44-40). .20 is and average for the original cartridge compression for the 44-40 as per dissected cartridges. I'd like to have a bullet seating die cap that fits the Mav Ducth bullet!