Help Me Understand.

[Percussion Pete]

Ok, I should be somewhat safe asking this on the BP forum. (maybe)

In CAS we're trying to replicate the late 1800's. Some go to great time and expence to wear the proper clothing. I like that for those who do. The same can be said for the guns and leather.

From my observation, the same can not be said for the loads and style of shooting. Why is that, and why is it even in the rules? I've seen some loads so light that I see zero recoil and smoke. Which brings up another point. Why smokeless powder? Why shooting with two hands? Why do everything right except the most important part...the shooting?

If you can't handle the way it was really done. Maybe you wouldn't have done it originally and should take up golf. Have you taken up an alias that you could never have been?

I know I might be harsh to some, but that's the way I am. If nothing else. I'm honest about my opinion. I'm 67 and use full loads of BP. It's what I would have used back in the day. Why can't others?

Help me understand.

[Springfield Slim]

Did you ride your horse to the match? Are you wearing full woolen underwear? Are you not wearing safety glasses and hearing protection? If not then you are not doing it totally like in the old days. If we did it like they REALLY did it very few would show up as it wouldn't be any fun, just like it wasn't considered fun back in the old days, just something that was necessary. This is suppossed to be a fun sport, not some sort of survival exercise. I shoot full BP loads also, and will shoot with you any day, but that doesn't mean I think everybody should do it.

[hellgate]

One of the big reasons for the growth of CAS is because it is a very user friendly sport that allows so many to shoot a fun sport without a lot of requirements. Heck, the '97s sure don't look "cowboy" but so many are familiar with pump guns that it is an easy transition. Any thing that makes the shooting easier also appeals to women. How many shooting sports do you see so many wives and concubines also shooting along with the  guys. If the sport turns into a BP/duelist/SXS sport and you'll see about an 80% drop in participation. I've shot Frontiersman now for 12 years. It and the FC & FCD categories are really not that big but the women and new shooters get a kick out of actually hitting targets (they are a lot closer than they used to be) and not having the chore of cleaning guns. CAS is as much a social activity as a shooting "competition". How many other shooting genres have pot lucks after a match? Basically a big part of SAS/CAS is that it is such a big tent that allows a great variety of participation that appeals to all types. I'm only 60 but I like to make big smoke too. I just love the question "Can you get any more powder in those pistols?" The sport is a success 'cause it has something for everybody. The mouse pfart load issue was pretty well settled a year or so. At least I haven't seen the pipsqueek BP loads lately.

[Percussion Pete]

Did you ride your horse to the match? Are you wearing full woolen underwear? Are you not wearing safety glasses and hearing protection? If not then you are not doing it totally like in the old days. If we did it like they REALLY did it very few would show up as it wouldn't be any fun, just like it wasn't considered fun back in the old days, just something that was necessary. This is suppossed to be a fun sport, not some sort of survival exercise. I shoot full BP loads also, and will shoot with you any day, but that doesn't mean I think everybody should do it.

I really do hate the itchy woolen underwear.

[Percussion Pete]

hellgate,

Point made. Thanks.

I guess I wish the Frontiermans class had more interest. 

[Noz]

I really do hate the itchy woolen underwear.

NAW! IF'N YOU WEAR THE SAME SET ALL THE TIME THEY GETS SLICK AND DON'T ITCH NO MORE.



(SORRY MY KEYBOARD IS STUCK ON CAPS)

[Jefro]

SASS is a family game/sport for the young and old.................and around here alot ladies. SASS has rules for a BP smoke standard, and a power factor for smokeless, they also have minimum dress requirements. Agree or disagree those are the rules. As long as folks are playing within those rules it's thier game to play and have fun. If someone choses to go full bore wart hog with historcally accurate thread count, that too is thier game to play. I don't concern myself with how others play as long as they are within the rules and having fun. Usually there are two or three of us shooting the same thing that compete against each other, while others may shoot for the shear pleasure of being outside with thier friends. A quote from one of the Wild Bunch founders Judge Roy Bean.
"Everybody seems to think we're a period shoot, but we're not. We're a fantasy cowboy acting shoot. Judge Roy Bean."

Jefro, Relax-Enjoy

[Delmonico]

I really do hate the itchy woolen underwear.

You can wear cotton flannel.      To be truthful, I've been studing Old West history for well over 40 years and have never found anny accounts of anyone shooting either steel targets or using a 'lectronic timer.

No matter how strict the ruling body is, you are not playing a PC game.  You can get much closer to being PC by doing living history, although you still don't want to get your water from a near by creek or hang a quarter of beef in the tree and cut off what you need for a meal in the summer.  My recent trip where it was in the upper 90's and humidity was at times over 75% and no breeze was interesting.  Modern Gatorade did keep the cook from having a heatstroke though.

[Forty Rod]

NAW! IF'N YOU WEAR THE SAME SET ALL THE TIME THEY GETS SLICK AND DON'T ITCH NO MORE.

BUT YOU WILL...A LOT!

[Jefro]

Pete, another way to up your fun factor is find a couple of like minded pards to shoot against each other in a sub category like Wart Hog, I shoot BPGF. Many clubs shoot sub categories if there are folks willing to play. Here's a few, Good Luck.

Pale Rider also simular to Wart Hog

Main match cartridge pistols and lever action rifle of 40 Caliber and above (38-40 on up). For bullet weights of 200 grs or more, a black powder charge of 25 grs by volume (1.6 cc's) is required. For 38-40, a bullet weight of 180 grs is permitted; however, the black powder charge is increased to a minimum of 30 grs by volume (2.0 cc's). 12 gauge shotgun only; minimum charge is 60 grs (4.0 cc's) and 1 1/8 oz of shot.
Pale Rider is shot gunfighter style, although a duelist category may be offered.

Josey Wales

Josey Wales participants will shoot 4 SASS main match revolvers and a double barrel or lever action shotgun. No rifle is required for this category. Revolvers may be shot duelist or gunfighter, 10 shots at the pistol targets and 10 shots at the rifle targets. Gunfighter style may only be utilized from revolvers secured in straight hang holsters from opposite sides of the body, or safely staged on props.

Frontier Cowboy

The same dress and .40 caliber requirements of Classic Cowboy, except it must be shot with Black Powder, Duelist or Gunfighter style.

Jefro, Relax-Enjoy

[hellgate]

Hey now, Jefro,
That thar Josey Wales/Bushwhacker category would be right up my alley. Whenever I get a dud with the pistols and need to shoot the chamber clear I always aim at a far away rifle target. If i miss by a mile it just looks like I was aimin' for the dirt but if I ding it everybody's impressed (especially me).

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Pete,

As stated, SASS events are fantasy events.  Since your fantasy is old west realism, have at it, enjoy it and encourage it.  But, don't expect others to do the same.  If they're shootin' within SASS rules, that's the game and they are playing legal like.

I'm with you when it comes to shootin', however I had to rename the caliber of my pistols to 44 ELR (Extra Long Russian) from 44 Magnum.

DD-DLoS

[Percussion Pete]

Thanks for your answers Pards. I've made a decision. I'll be pretty much shooting in my own class, but so what. I'll have fun and I love to challenge myself. I get bored if I don't. Here's the deal.

In the club I plan to shoot at they have a class called Outlaw. You can shoot any gun and I think style with the exception that you have to shoot from the hip, or as it's written in there rules...below the chest. That apllies to the revolver and shotgun, with the rifle an option. Of course i'll shoot all guns from the hip. I'm sure that's not realistic, but I need a way to make it hard for me. It also works out that i'm a right hand shooter who is blind in my right eye. No sights, no problem. Just point where i'm looking. It worked for the rifleman. 

I shoot 1860's and will load 30 gr of 3f. I use a Winchester 66 44-40 and will load 40 gr of 2f. The SxS shotgun will load 70 gr of 2f. That should keep everybody awake and ducking the smoke.

I have one concern, and maybe you can help me out. I know shooting like this will be fine at my club, but don't know what will happen at bigger shoots. Will they let me shoot like this?

[hellgate]

The big problem will be where the clubs have a rule where a round fired over the berm is a match DQ. We have a lot of shooters that shoot the shotgun from the hip (not shouldered). We also have a lot of urban & suburban ranges with houses just outside the fenco or on the other side of the berm so they are REAL careful to prevent a high shot. At those ranges you could make some folks nervous as they could easily lose their range. The shotgun hip shooters are shooting at on the ground targets and not aerial flyers.

[Percussion Pete]

From what i've seen. Some shoot over the berm using the sights.

I'll probably only shoot my club and the End of the Trail. Maybe if I can prove myself by hitting the targets they'll give me some slack. If not, i'll just stick to my club and be happy.

[Wills Point Pete]

 I wonder where we got the idea that the old timers never shot two handed? When I was a child in the 1950s there were still quite a few old cowboys and lawmen around. We had more than one veteran of the Spanish American War around, too. Two handed shooting was, if not as common as today, still fairly often used. My Granny shot a revolver two handed as a matter of course. Her second husband (my Grandpa died shortly after my Mom was born due to complications from being gassed during WW1) shot one handed close up, as soon as the target was further away than ten or twenty feet went to both hands.

By the same token, one of the more popular cartridges in the west was the .32-20, in both handgun and rifle. Add all the thousands of little S&W (and foreign) revolvers in .32, they were not only used in the east. Even in the west most folks did not need the deep penetration of the .44s and .45s. Those were fine if one might need to stop an angry longhorn, then as now, most folks did not. Back then the only difference between the big cartridges and the little ones was that the big cartridges killed you quickly, the little ones you still died, just slowly and painfully from infection. No antibiotics back then, and the only surgery was hacking off legs and arms.

Yeah, we play a game. How many thirty a month and found cowboys owned two six shooters, a rifle and a shotgun? How many townies carried two six shooters? Most didn't carry one. If anything it was a .32 or .38 S&W or a .41 Remington two shooter. Most western lawmen carried a Colt Single Action though, primarily because you could pull it and bop a drunk alongside the head without breaking it, as long as you didn't use the barrel. You couldn't hardly use the hinged framed S&Ws like that.

The west wasn't much like the movies. John Wayne and Hank Fonda would not have been in the Cavalry, they were too big. The Calvary had a weight limit, over 140 pounds and it was the Infantry or Artillery. One third of the Texas cowboys were black, another large portion were of Mexican heritage, we don't see that in the movies.

[Cemetery]

One of the big reasons for the growth of CAS is because it is a very user friendly sport that allows so many to shoot a fun sport without a lot of requirements. Heck, the '97s sure don't look "cowboy" but so many are familiar with pump guns that it is an easy transition. Any thing that makes the shooting easier also appeals to women. How many shooting sports do you see so many wives and concubines also shooting along with the  guys. If the sport turns into a BP/duelist/SXS sport and you'll see about an 80% drop in participation. I've shot Frontiersman now for 12 years. It and the FC & FCD categories are really not that big but the women and new shooters get a kick out of actually hitting targets (they are a lot closer than they used to be) and not having the chore of cleaning guns. CAS is as much a social activity as a shooting "competition". How many other shooting genres have pot lucks after a match? Basically a big part of SAS/CAS is that it is such a big tent that allows a great variety of participation that appeals to all types. I'm only 60 but I like to make big smoke too. I just love the question "Can you get any more powder in those pistols?" The sport is a success 'cause it has something for everybody. The mouse pfart load issue was pretty well settled a year or so. At least I haven't seen the pipsqueek BP loads lately.

And let's not forget that many people become gun owners due to SASS.  I've met many many people who never shot guns till they got the cowboy/cowgirl bug, then look out.

I'm one of those people, one day, my father's Winchester's starting calling to me.  I learned how to shoot 'em, then got a Ruger, at the same time the shopkeep told me about SASS, and that he'd order another Ruger for me cause he knew my the twinkle in my eye I was hooked.   

[Percussion Pete]

I wonder where we got the idea that the old timers never shot two handed? When I was a child in the 1950s there were still quite a few old cowboys and lawmen around. We had more than one veteran of the Spanish American War around, too. Two handed shooting was, if not as common as today, still fairly often used. My Granny shot a revolver two handed as a matter of course. Her second husband (my Grandpa died shortly after my Mom was born due to complications from being gassed during WW1) shot one handed close up, as soon as the target was further away than ten or twenty feet went to both hands.

By the same token, one of the more popular cartridges in the west was the .32-20, in both handgun and rifle. Add all the thousands of little S&W (and foreign) revolvers in .32, they were not only used in the east. Even in the west most folks did not need the deep penetration of the .44s and .45s. Those were fine if one might need to stop an angry longhorn, then as now, most folks did not. Back then the only difference between the big cartridges and the little ones was that the big cartridges killed you quickly, the little ones you still died, just slowly and painfully from infection. No antibiotics back then, and the only surgery was hacking off legs and arms.

Yeah, we play a game. How many thirty a month and found cowboys owned two six shooters, a rifle and a shotgun? How many townies carried two six shooters? Most didn't carry one. If anything it was a .32 or .38 S&W or a .41 Remington two shooter. Most western lawmen carried a Colt Single Action though, primarily because you could pull it and bop a drunk alongside the head without breaking it, as long as you didn't use the barrel. You couldn't hardly use the hinged framed S&Ws like that.

The west wasn't much like the movies. John Wayne and Hank Fonda would not have been in the Cavalry, they were too big. The Calvary had a weight limit, over 140 pounds and it was the Infantry or Artillery. One third of the Texas cowboys were black, another large portion were of Mexican heritage, we don't see that in the movies.

I take none of my opinions from Hollywood.

I do agree that one revolver would be better, but thems the rules.

[kflach]

Percussion Pete,

Have you checked out the NCOWS organization? They have a category for one revolver and one rifle.

[Trailrider]

CAS is a "let's pretend" sport.  But instead of pointing our fingers or capguns and hollerin' "Bang! Bang! Yer dead!",  "We deal in lead, friend!" 

This is the Wild West as we wish it was...not the West where more folks died of typhoid (or something similar), measles, and "the ague (malaria), than from "lead poisoning".  I'm going on 68, and I'd have been dead 63 years ago if it hadn't have been for antibiotics (and penecilin hadn't been released to the general public by the military, so it was sulfa or nothing, and I'm mildly allergic to sulfa!).  I once got into a "discussion" with a re-enactor over my using nylon or polyester thread in my leather goods.  I told him that folks want equipment that will last more than about 3 years that original holsters, etc., lasted.  It was "farb" in his opinion.  I asked him, since he did mounted re-enactment, did he get his tetanus shots?  He said, of course!  I asked him how he could be authentic doing that when more people died from "lockjaw" during the Civil War than directly from bullets!

Point is, be as authentic as you want.  But above all BE SAFE! BE SAFE! BE SAFE! and then HAVE FUN!

Your obedient servant,