BP Loads?

[Percussion Pete]

 I'm new here and new to CAS. I've only shot my BP 1860's with BP up to now. I'm going with the Frontiersman class. I know it's not that popular, but it's the only class that interest me.

My questions are about loading a BP cartridge. In the past i've loaded shotgun sheels when I shot trap alot, but no experience with brass. I have a good supply of Goex FFFG. Can I use that in a cartridge? What about the shotgun? I've read you fill a cartrdige to the top with BP to load it. How would that compare to 25g in my C&B pistol? I'm asking that in case I convert the pistols to cartridge. Which is probably unlikely, but just in case I move to Frontier cartridge.

This is a curiosty question. I know I should never use smokeless powder in a BP pistol. Isn't that what a cowboy load is? Also, what is the power/speed of a cowboy load compared to 25g of BP? I never see any specs on the cowboy load.

One last question. (sorry) If I use 20g of BP in my pistols. Will it be stong enough to knock over the targets in CAS?

Thanks ahead of time for youe help/ All opinion welcome.

[Flint]

fffg (3fg) should be OK for cartridges up to 45 caliber, but is too fine for shotgun, use ffg (2fg) for shotgun.  2fg is also good for 45 caliber cartridges.  3fg is fine for cap &ball revolvers, 2fg is a bit lower velocity.

A "Cowboy Load" is NOT smokeless in a BP pistol.  A Cowboy Load is a load that does not exceed the velocity limits listed in the SASS Shooter's Handbook.  This is: Revolver ammunition must have a muzzle velocity less than 1000 fps, and Rifle ammunition must have a muzzle velocity less than 1400 fps.

Whether 20 gr of BP can knock over CAS targets depends upon what caliber or what cartridge and bullet weight you are talking about.  Other than shotgun targets, not many stages use knockdown targets for rifle or pistol, except for the occasional rack mounted array, and they are usually good for even 32 caliber loads.

For a good reference on black powder loading for Single Action revolvers, cap & ball, Conversions and SAA types, get the book: "Shooting Colt Single Actions" by Mike Venturino.  MLV Enterprises, PO Box 914, Livingston, MT 59047.

[Howdy Doody]

You know what is weird besides me that is? For CAS loading a shotgun with other than 2F works. I over bought Goex Cowboy and to use it up I started loading it in shotgun. Well, I have been shooting it up and since my formula is based on cc or volume it just doesn't seem to be any different in recoil, pattern or knockdown power. I will agree that using 2F is cheaper by a buck or two per pound, but for CAS I was surprised to find that Cowboy (near 3F) is workable. I'll go back to 2F once my overstock of Cowboy is down. I don't have a bunker and I get skittish, since days of 115 or so are right around the corner for me. I like to use Cowboy in C&Bs as it measure out of my flask real well with a 35gr nipple of which I am dropping probably only 32gr of that due to my skin holding the powder back.

Say Flint, when ya coming back and see me? You know W3G is having their annual in August. I miss our chats after the match. 

[Percussion Pete]

Flint,

Thanks a lot. That cleared it for me.

Just one question though and it is curiosity. The cowboy loads I was talking about are sold by a couple of companies. Cabelas has some listed in bulk ammo. They make no mention of BP, so I assumed they were smokeless powder. Are those loads that shouldn't be used in a C&P pistol that's been converted to cartridge?

Oops! One more question. I see BP cartridge loads for sale for about .75 ea. How much could I save if I loaded my own?

Thanks.

[Fingers McGee]

Howdy and welcome Pete;

I shoot Frontiersman and my ammunition stacks up as follows:  

Pistols are Uberti or 2nd Gen Colt 1861 Navies running 20 gr of fffg, lubed wad and a .380 roundball.  I've never had problems with knockdowns calibrated per SASS recommendations.  I shot LandRun two weeks ago & cleared all 15 knockdowns - on two stages - with the Navies.  Have also shot Hell on Wheels & managed to take out their knockdowns as well.  

Rifle is Uberti '66 Carbine in 44-40 running 26.5 gr (volume) of fffg behind either a 200 gr. Desperado bullet or a 200 gr. Big Lube bullet.  

For the shotgun, I use use a Liberty II or TTN 12 ga running 50 gr of ffg with a pink wad & 7/8 oz of 7 1/2 shot.  For the shotgun rounds, fffg will work just as well.  I don't have any trouble getting powder, so I keep ffg and fffg on hand.  

My rifle rounds cost about 20 cents each after the initial investment for brass.  Powder @ $13/lb, primers @$34/1000; and bullets @ $120/1000

[Pulp]

The other day I got curious and put various loads of Goex 3f into a .45 hull.  Here's a photo of the results:



From left to right they are:

2.2cc Lee Dipper, actual weight was 33.7 grains
2.2cc Lee Dipper dropped through an 18 inch drop tube.
2.5cc Lee Dipper, actual weight was about 38 grains.
2.5cc Lee Dipper through a drop tube.
40 grains actual weight.
40 grains through a drop tube.

For CAS and quick loading the first load would be the easiest, as it doesn't require a drop tube, and will have plenty of punch.

Welcom to CAS.  I shoot Frontiersman, as do many of the folks what visits here.

[hellgate]

Pete,
I've been shooting nothing but perCUSSIN' revolvers and BP in SASS shoots since 1993. I could give you 3 pages of pointers, many of which may be useless to know. Here's my armament: two 44 cal C&Bs (of about a dozen makes & models), mod '92 Rossi in 357mag (38/40 or 44-40 would be better, Mod '66 or '73 even better), 12ga SXS hammerless.
I shoot 20-23 grs FFFg+round ball in the revolvers, 15grs (weighed) 777 under a 158gr bullet in the rifle, and 55gr FFg (or ANY sub but 777) under 7/8oz shot. If I need to knock anything over I'm wondering about I load 30grs in the revolvers under a ball or 200gr LEE conical (if they will fit) and have 75-80 grs FFg under 1 1/8oz shot in a steel shot cup in the 12 ga.

For a TON of info look up Capt. George Baylor's website and read "Frontiersman for Dummies". He uses ROAs but the basics are there.

For the 38cal you could get the Snakebite bullet mold that pours a "big lube" bullet that you can use BP for or any of the othere big lube bullets in the various calibers. You will go broke if you don't reload your own ammo. The "BP" ammo you can buy generally contain APP which is corrosive to your brass but not so much to the rifle steel.

This is a great forum for info. Feel free to ask about anything you want to know. We all have info on whatever it takes to enjoy the sport. This is like going out to a gun club and talking to the old geezers who love to help the nimrods get off on the right foot. You might just learn by OUR mistakes.

[Percussion Pete]

Pards,

Thanks a million for the info. It helps this old geezer a lot. I'm 67 and living on Social Security, so I need to find the cheapest way to compete.

.20 to load cartridges is a huge saving over buying them loaded. It shouldn't take long to make up the cost of loading equipment. I'll go that way for sure. Plus i'll be able to practice more. Which i'll need a ton of. I'm fine with the pistol, but i've lost sight of my right eye which is my dominant eye. I can move the pistol over to lign up, but I see no way to shoot a rifle or shotgun except to learn to shoot left handed. That will take some long practice sessions.

Do you think i'll freak everybody out to shoot the pistols right handed, and the long guns left handed? 

I'm shooting Pietta 1860 8" 44's. I have big hands and it's the only C&B that fits me. I want to keep everything big bore because...well.. they boom and smoke better. 

[hellgate]

Pete,
Shooting perCUSSIN' revolvers is not as cheap as with the suppository shooters as the powder & caps are more expensive than say, for the 38SPL. I had trouble getting a true BP load in the 357mag/38SPL to be both accurate and  less fouling (the Snakebite bullet did not feed reliably in my guns or I would be using them with BP). The affordability of the Italian repros is literally their selling point.

One tip to prevent cap jams: fill in that little safety notch in the hammer faces on your revolvers. That will keep caps from getting caught in the notch and dropping into the action or under the hammer when you cock the gun. I use J B Weld but solder, brazing, or welding would be better. We don't need the notch in SASS as we always put a hammer down on an empty chamber for safety rather than between the nipples.

[Percussion Pete]

hellgate,

I can see by all your hints that I spelled my own name wrong.  Reading "Frontier for Dummies" suits me perfect. Can I change my name? Maybe Wiskey Pete would be better?

I was thinking of getting a 36 caliber to save some money, but the 1860 never came that way. So, I was stuck with the 44. I could convert them to cartridge and load them for .20, but it would take a long time to get back the $600 to convert them. I can load them now for about .30, so it's not too bad.

Besides i'm trying to stay in the 1860's era. Which means i'll have to get an 1866 Winchester. I've read the 73 it better for BP, because it disassembles quicker. I'll have to think about that.

[Percussion Pete]

Wait a minute! I didn't spell it wrong. 

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Perky Pete;  I use an 1866  in .38 with BP.. No problems cleaning at all, as I only do a detail strip once a year.  The barrel cleans up slick as a whistle and wiping the breach & carrier is no problem at all.

[Montana Slim]

++ on the 1860's...I have a passel of them in percussion & cartridge versions, including a pair of C&B Piettas.. I cast my own balls & there's less than 1/2 a cent difference in the cost of shooting a 36 vs my 44s. I like the boom & smoke, so my 1866 is also 44-40. BP makes a wonderful filler.

Regards,
Slim

[Fingers McGee]

Besides i'm trying to stay in the 1860's era. Which means i'll have to get an 1866 Winchester. I've read the 73 it better for BP, because it disassembles quicker. I'll have to think about that.

I've got both.  The '73 is a little easier; but once you get used to the '66, there's really not that much difference. 

FM

[Montana Slim]

12+ years of use (~20,000 rds BP) and I've only had my 66 apart twice.

Slim

[Percussion Pete]

Then a 66 it is for me. I really want to keep everything in the 60's.

Thanks.

[Capt. JEB Forrest]

Well, I shoot 1860 Armies.

Tried 3f but it was to hot for me, use 20-21 2f now with a round ball or epp-ug and it works fine.

I too wanted to stay with the 1860's so there was only one option....get a Henry! in 44-40!! fill with 2f and a 200 gr slug.

shotgun is a Stevens 311 in 16 ga.

[pony express]

Pards,



Do you think i'll freak everybody out to shoot the pistols right handed, and the long guns left handed? 

Go ahead and shoot that way, for the most part we don't freak out that easily!

[Percussion Pete]

Go ahead and shoot that way, for the most part we don't freak out that easily!

How about if I shoot right handed with a patch on my right eye? I shoot to the right of all targets with the long guns, and can bring the pistols in line with the sights, so on target with those. It's much more comfortable than shooting left handed and about as accurate.

That should get some looks. 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Nobody cares how you shoot, as long as you are safe.

Personally, I am right handed but left eye dominant. I discovered this about ten years ago. I am much too old to relearn to shoot left handed, just ain't gonna happen. With a long gun I simply close my left eye and shoot righty with my right eye open. Same with Trap shooting. Same with pistols shot duelist style. Shot righty with left eye closed. But if I am shooting pistols two handed, and facing straight on to the target, I usually bring the gun up in front of my left eye, which sees better anyway.

Nobody notices or cares.