History - 1865 Burnside Spencers - Please help with information

[Jan Buchwald]

I have a Model 1865, Burnside production Spencer carbine serial no. 8944A, in as good a condition that I wonder if it has ever been issued, but if anyone can lighten up its history, I would be happy. Only other marking is the no. 77 in the wood ontop of the butstock.
Hope to try it for the first time tomorrow.
All the best
Jan B

[Two Flints]

Hi JBW,

Thanks for joining SSS.  Please feel free to search our site as there is plenty of information about Spencers to read.

Regarding your Burnside Spencer.  The following information about Burnside Spencers may be of some help to you and is scanned from the "Spencer bible," Spencer repeating Firearms by Roy M. Marcot.



If possible, please post photos of your Burnside Spencer, especially closeups of the receiver section where you will find the Spencer stamp.  That would be interesting to see.  If you would rather, you can Email the photos to me as attachments, and I can post them for you to go along with any text you may care to add as a new thread/post.  My Email address is:  fsgrand2@fairpoint.net

There are no existing detailed records of the Burnside Spencers.  I have data on original Spencers, but the records of the Burnside Company were lost to history or are archived somewhere and have not been revealed, as yet.  Your Burnside Spencer was supposed to be produced in March of 1865, using your serial # as a guide.  However, the Burnside Company got way behind in their production dates for Spencers, and your serial # Spencer was eventually made sometime before August 31, 1865.  Your Burnside Spencer may have eventually been shipped from storage as part of arms sale to a European country, probably France.  It may have fallen into the hands of a Prussian soldier, making its way to Denmark, at some point in time???

The page below is taken from the Roy C. Marcot book, Spencer Repeating Firearms.  There is a short chapter on (Burnside) Spencers.



Two Flints

[Jan Buchwald]

[Jan Buchwald]

Off topic: Saw the mention from two Flints about the Springfield research service, I have a converted Sharps 1863 carbine too, ser. no. 79601, is it by any means mentioned?
All the best
Jan B

[Herbert]

hav a look for a inspectors mark on the left hand side of the buttstock just behind the sling bar,more of these went into storage than were isued in the US ,but some would have seen youse in France and some were traded all over the world yously by US Waliers ,it would be extreamly unlickly that the full history of your carbine can be found,diging through  regimental cavelry record s from 1866 to 1874 could with extream luck turn up your serial no but i think Two Flints has come up with the most lickly anser next would be the wailing conection

[Two Flints]

Hi JBW,

Please read my disclaimer, which usually/normally appears with Spencer serial # requests.

Some time ago I acquired the four volume set of the Springfield Research Service (SRS) Serial Numbers of U.S. Martial Arms. I purchased the set so I could help SSS members identify which unit their original Sharps Carbine or rifle was issued or assigned to during, and perhaps, after the Civil War.

Unfortunately, not all the Sharps serial numbers are listed in the four volume set I own. And, there are gaps between indicated serial numbers. This paragraph is a DISCLAIMER of sorts. As a courtesy to SSS members, I am happy to reveal to you the information I have regarding the serial number of your Sharps carbine or rifle. But, please remember, I am just regurgitating what I read in my SRS volumes with some "unscientific conjecture" on my part . What I do is the following: I take your Sharps serial number and try to place it in between the two closest serial numbers to yours listed in my SRS volume. In most cases, if the serial numbers for the Sharps before and after your own serial number were issued to the same unit, I assume your Sharps went to the same unit. Or, if your Sharps serial number is very, very close to another Sharps serial number, I assume your Sharps went to the same unit. I call this the "Two Flints guesstimation").  I'm guessing and estimating at the same time on what I believe to be correct information based upon the information I find in my four volume set of SRS.  If the information is lacking in correctness and or accuracy,  it ain't my fault.  I'm just doing the best that I can do with what I have to work with.  And that is the best that I can do for you.

Having written all the above, it appears your modified Sharps Carbine, serial #79601 may have been issued to a member of Company I of the 1st NY Mounted Rifles sometime in October, 1864.  In one of my Springfield books it shows a Sharps Carbine, serial #79599, as also being issued to Company I of the New York Mounted Rifles, which is very close to your Sharps Carbine serial #79601.

Hope this helps.

Two Flints

[Trailrider]

If I read your post correctly your carbine is a "cartridge conversion" to .50-70 Gov't.  The problem with tracking the history of these conversion Sharps is that they were not converted by any consistent grouping by serial number.  Neither were those Sharps conversions' serial numbers recorded as they were issued to various regular Army cavalry units...if, indeed, they were issued to a Regular unit.  Most of these .50-70 carbines were issued between 1870 and 1873, being phased out on issue of the M1873 Trapdoor Springfield Carbines...MOSTLY!  Now by that I mean that in some instances, a few of the M1869 conversions were retained by cavalry units for use of their civilian employees in the field with the troops, and also for target practice of the troops themselves.  By directive, each trooper was permitted 3 rounds per man per month for target practice.

In the period between 1874 and at least 1876 Company G, 3rd Cavalry had 5 Sharps Carbines charged against them, plus IIRC 84 ea. Trapdoor Springfield .45 cal carbines.  (Ordnance records after June '76 are non-existent so far as the National Archives are concerned.  I know, I've been trying to find post-Jun '76 for forty years, with no success!) At least one of those carbines appear to have been issued to a young civilian teamster, an employee of the Quartermaster Dept. He carved his name deeply in the buttstock, and there is no reason to suppose he would have carved up government property, nor would he have autographed a stolen weapon.  Although there are NO records on this particular piece, it is presumed that he purchased it ("lost" and cost deducted from his pay, or by paying for it directly.  Unfortunately, there is no documentation of this, however, there are similar records of other guns, 100 rounds of ammo, buckets, etc., having been "lost" and cost deducted from pay.  [At least one pair of insulated cold weather trousers were disposed of in the 1960's by person or persons who shall remain nameless, as an Air Force troop dropped out of a northern state in the middle of a howling blizzard! Oh, yes, it was paid for!  )

Anyhow, do you find any unusual markings, names, initials, etc. stamped in the wood or on the metal of your Sharps?  No, don't put any there...just report if there are any.  Still looking for the "rosetta stone" on QM Dept. employee used arms!  Even if the answer is no, you have a great piece there!

[Jan Buchwald]

A click at the picture should bring you to the movieclip at my photobucket album

I tried to upload to you tube, but something went wrong

[Jan Buchwald]

Must have done something right, now it's on you tube too, look at



Had 15 shot at 100 meters, it looked promessing.
Best wishes
Jan B

[Two Flints]

Hi JBW,

The first post "click on photo" worked for me, as well as the Utube version.  Why only two shots shown   Why not all 15?

Two Flints

[Jan Buchwald]

Wasn't shure of the succes, the photographer wasn't free, wanted to concentrate on the shoting,didn't want to be boring, want more bad excuses.
Jan B

[Jan Buchwald]

And thanks to all for the history, including the Sharps, yes, trailrider is correct, it is converted to 50-70, but as Two flints have found, it had a life before that, and to the disclaimer, when people do their best, they are not to be blamed.
I once saw a "ring hane" carbine in the museum of the Royal Danish Husars , there was not a spot to put another scratch, think of, if it had been able to tell the story of days in the sadle.

[Herbert]

just a small tip ,if you cock the hamer before cycling the action extraction willbe smoother an when the cartrige is chamberd the fireing pin will not contact the primer,some people harf cock but whith the carbine pointed down range i have found full cock a quick flick of the risk down and back and you are ready to shoot,with very litttle practice you can do this without taking the carbine from the sholder and alows you to achive almost the speed of a henry rifle,and if you have a blakslee loader you will overtack the henrys rate of fiear

[Jan Buchwald]

Thank's to Herbert, thinking of it, you are right.
Two other questions: The Spencer on Twoflints picture is equipped with a sling swivel both on the barrel band and the butstock, mine only has one on the butstock, which I see no function of?
What is the correct length of the cartridge case?

[Two Flints]

JBW,

Please provide the link to the photo that this comment refers to: 

JBW quote: "The Spencer on Twoflints picture is equipped with a sling swivel both on the barrel band and the butstock, mine only has one on the butstock, which I see no function of?  What is the correct length of the cartridge case?"

I've added so many photos

Two Flints

[Jan Buchwald]

The page below is taken from the Roy C. Marcot book, Spencer Repeating Firearms.  There is a short chapter on (Burnside) Spencers.



Two Flints

It is this photo, earlier in this string I think of.

[Two Flints]

JBW,

This is the question you typed that I was referring to:  What is the correct length of the cartridge case?

Two Flints

[Jan Buchwald]

Sorry, can see it was confusing. It was in the question of sling swivels that I ment to refer to the picture.
The cartridge question was because my emtied cases stil has the "bullet crimp", and it might be because they were too long 1.22" (31mm). I use shortened 50-70 Starline.
What is the correct length?

[Perry Owens]

For my 1865 Burnside I trim the Starline 50-70 brass to 1.150in. This suits the bullets rom the Buffalo Arms JIM520375 mould.
I agree with Herbert about cocking the hammer first, though I sometimes forget, as you can see from my YouTube effort

[Trailrider]

Interestingly, if you go to the cartridges chapter of Roy R. Marcot's "Spencer Repeating Firearms," you'll find that the measured lengths of the cartridge cases, bullets, and other measurements vary all over the place, depending on the manufacturer.

My bad! I got the author's name wrong and am correcting the error!