A Faro Game in the Arizona Territory Circa 1895

[Shotgun Steve]

Old post card.

[Stillwater]

How come none of those "Certified Old West Characters," are wearing approved CAS cowboy clothing?

Curious people want to know...!

Bill

[Will Ketchum]

How come none of those "Certified Old West Characters," are wearing approved CAS cowboy clothing?

Curious people want to know...!

Bill

So what's not "approved"?

Will Ketchum

[Delmonico]

Looks fine to me, as Will Said, what's not approved/period correct?

[Stillwater]

I don't see suspenders on anybody, and I see a belt holding a pair pants up...

Bill

[Will Ketchum]

I didn't realize that suspenders were required in CAS   I'm not certain where you see the belt but it's not belts that weren't worn it's that pants didn't have belt loops.  I do believe that the gent to the far left is wearing suspenders.

Will Ketchum

[Stillwater]

I didn't realize that suspenders were required in CAS  I'm not certain where you see the belt but it's not belts that weren't worn it's that pants didn't have belt loops.  I do believe that the gent to the far left is wearing suspenders.

Will Ketchum

I've read on the forum that suspenders were required because everybody, in the old west, wore them...

How is it determined that pants did not have belt loops? I've seen it both ways.

I have seen a picture of John Clum, when he was an Indian agent, wearing pants with belt loops and a belt. That was before he was the editor of the Tombstone Epitaph. That would make those pants being made prior to 1879.

I'm not trying to be obstinate, or anything, about boots, suspenders, belt loops and belts. If I still had pictures of my Grandfather, I could show you pants with belt loops. We lost all of the early memorabilia in 1972, when a flood took our house away.

What brought my comment out, was what I have seen as permissiveness in some areas, firearm calibers etc., and exreme thread counting in other areas.

Either one or the other is all right, as long as it is consistent. However, I can't see myself wearing some of the fancy boots I have seen in Texas, when I lived there.

One other thing I remember was my grandfather saying toes on boots became round or pointed, around 1885, which help keep them from getting caught in a stirrup. As a matter of fact, he used to cut his boots over half way down the back, (sewn on either side of the cut) just so his foot would slip out of the boot, if it caught in the stirrup.

I have been wearing riding boots for over seventy years. From where I came from, you would look out of place in shoes or brogans. I have about ten pair of good riding boots right now. I have Ostritch hide boots, Elephant hide boots, and cowhide leather boots, etc. Most of my boots are probably designed to late, to wear at an NCOWS event. And that is all right. I just don't trust, or like, coffin toed boots. On all of my personal wear boots, the piece covering the toes are perforated. I don't have any rough out boots in my collection.

I consider boots, belts and pants to be murky, gray areas, because I have seen to many pictures of those items, that do not conform to established thought. I am going to start saving pictures to prove my point.

One problem I have, is that I was born in the West, and have lived here all of my life. I don't like being very far east of the Rocky mountains, too many flatlanders there...! I learned to be observent growing up on a cattle ranch in southwestern Montana. If you weren't observent a horse, or some other animal, could put some significant dents in your head. Even after all of these years, I still scruitinize everything around me, very carefully, just because of the habit I acquired as a ranchers child. That saved me in California once.

I worked, for a few years, in a well known, full service gun shop, managing the retail part of the store. Unprepared, the owner and his son were shot, and almost killed, by two armed robbers, only two days before I started working there. The robbery and the shootings, were why I started working there.

A male usual, came in to the store, that was acting strangely, he was more than a little nervous. He asked for a box of ammunition, but didn't express the caliber like a gun person would. He wanted 25 ACP ammunition, but asked for 6.35 MM ammunition. As I reached for the box of ammunition, he turned away, so I couldn't see his hands. When he turned around, he was in the process of drawing his pistol, he found himself looking down the barrel of my 1911, when he turned around.

He turned white, he pleaded with me not to shoot him (I wasn't going to), he wet his pants. He was so slow on the draw, it would have been murder, if I would have shot him.

I disarmed him and called LAPD. The guy was wanted in several states, for serious crimes. The officers from LAPD told him he was lucky to be alive, because every body in this gun shop, was a gun slinger. He started perspiring at that.

Being observent probably saved my life, or at least saved me from a significant injury.

Bill

[Will Ketchum]

Bill, I have been involved with CAS for over 16 years and I have never read nor heard that suspenders are required.  I am not questioning your expertise.  If you have pictures or can point us to pictures of pants with belt loops I would be very interested in seeing them. 

I am the current secretary of NCOWS where we ask for documentation for thing that vary from what is considered the norm.  I am no where near an expert when it comes to foot wear but we have several people who are.  I do know that often our memories get a bit confused, we see this often in memoirs of some of the old time fur trappers and buffalo hunters.  Others like to spin yarns so mostly those type of things are viewed from a historian's point of view with some skepticism.  I have no doubt that your grandfather did what you say to his boots but that would be far from the norm.

I value your opinion and wish you well.

Will Ketchum

[Delmonico]

Please point out the man with the belt loops and belt in the pants.  There are hints that belt loops on pants came out sometime in the 1890's on dress pants, Baseball players seem to have had them sometime in the 1880's.  I would welcome good proof of them before that.

[Texas Lawdog]

Faro is a gme from the Old West that I have never been able to understand. It looks like most games of chance, in which the House has the advantage.

[Stillwater]

What I said was, I have read, on the forum, that belts, and belt loops, were not allowed...

What doesn't make good sense to me, is men wore pants for hundreds of years, and belts and belt loops were only developed in the late 1800's. On the face of it, thats nonsenical...!

Any time I find a picture of a pair of pants, with belt loops, I'll copy it and send it to you. I'll start my own file, and start looking now. I have several hundred books to look through, so it will take me awhile.

What I have seen, in pictures also, is pictures of a man wearing both suspenders and a belt.

Bill

[Delmonico]

With out reliable documented dates they don't mean much.  Have fun, I've been researching this and many other things for years along with others, that is what we have came up with so far.

I guess it depends on what you do as to what is allowed, as far as I know SASS allows belts, NCOWS will allow it if you can document it.  Not everything you read on forums is true, seen lots of things said by folks who have done no research.

[Delmonico]

I don't see suspenders on anybody, and I see a belt holding a pair pants up...

Bill

As I asked, where?

[Stillwater]

<delete>

I guess it depends on what you do as to what is allowed, as far as I know SASS allows belts, NCOWS will allow it if you can document it.  Not everything you read on forums is true, seen lots of things said by folks who have done no research.

First, I don't want anything to do with SASS, because of the GAMER aspect of the organization.

And as to your other comment above, I have seen history books, touted as real history, where I didn't think there was much research put into the book. As an example, read all of the storys written about Wyatt Earp and see how far some things are stretched beyond imagination. The only good book about Wyatt Earp is the book "Wyatt Earp," "The Life Behind The Legend" by Casey Tefertiller.

It just doesn't make sense, that belt loops were only developed around 1890...

Bill

[WaddWatsonEllis]

That is exactly the point; if it is difficult to understand, then the house has the advantage ... *S*

[Delmonico]

First, I don't want anything to do with SASS, because of the GAMER aspect of the organization.

And as to your other comment above, I have seen history books, touted as real history, where I didn't think there was much research put into the book. As an example, read all of the storys written about Wyatt Earp and see how far some things are stretched beyond imagination. The only good book about Wyatt Earp is the book "Wyatt Earp," "The Life Behind The Legend" by Casey Tefertiller.

It just doesn't make sense, that belt loops were only developed around 1890...

Bill

So now you see, you have to dig deep and be alble to do your own research, not rely on what others tell you with out proof.  As I said, I'm open minded, but years of searching hasn't shown any different.  As for why, a good question, simply the style of the pants do not lend themselve's to working well with a belt considering the higher waist band.  And to be truthful, sometimes I think folks were smarter back then since a belt is a tool not really suited to the task of holding up a pair of men's pants in case you haven't noticed.

[Delmonico]

I don't see suspenders on anybody, and I see a belt holding a pair pants up...

Bill

BTW you never did point out the belt.

[kflach]

From what I've been reading, Faro was more popular than Poker. I've been wondering if anyone still played it, especially at the primitive campsites at NCOWS events.


With regard to the belt loops question, I know a number of people here have access to Sears Catalogs (and such) from that era. I'd imagine that if belt loops were available they'd be on at least some of the pants in those catalogs.

[Delmonico]

With regard to the belt loops question, I know a number of people here have access to Sears Catalogs (and such) from that era. I'd imagine that if belt loops were available they'd be on at least some of the pants in those catalogs.

There are, someone posted one a long time ago, from like 1897 or 1898 and it was a pair of lower waisted dress pants.

[Deadeye Dick]

I did a "quick" computer search on the history of belt loops on pants in the US. Soonest I could find a mention of belts being used was 1893. Levi Strauss who started making waist overalls in 1873 didn't start putting belt loops on his overalls until 1922 and even then he still included suspender buttons. Suspenders were called braces in the 1800's.
Remember this was a quick search and there could be an earlier mention of belts out there.
Deadeye Dick