45 Schofield Loading Tube & Case Construction *** Photos Added ***

[triple w]

Any of you made loading tubes (speed loaders) for the 45 cal. Spencer?

[Sgt Scott]

I made a blakeslee loader and 6 tubes for my 44 russian. Had a heck of a time getting it measured, but it works. I know it's not super correct but it sure is fun. I'm mounted and had a chance to shoot in a reenactment with a couple of troopers with Henrys. I was empty before they were, but sure got loaded in a hurry and was able to cover them while they reloaded.

I used old tent poles from a nylon tent. Cut them to length to hold 7 rounds and put a plug in one end. I put 6 of these in my loader then carry a few in my regulation ammo pouch. I buckle the blakeslee loader to my left side with the strap that goes over  my right shoulder. Being a 44 it is siginificantly smaller than the full size ones.

Sgt Scott

[triple w]

I made a blakeslee loader and 6 tubes for my 44 russian. Had a heck of a time getting it measured, but it works. I know it's not super correct but it sure is fun. I'm mounted and had a chance to shoot in a reenactment with a couple of troopers with Henrys. I was empty before they were, but sure got loaded in a hurry and was able to cover them while they reloaded.

I used old tent poles from a nylon tent. Cut them to length to hold 7 rounds and put a plug in one end. I put 6 of these in my loader then carry a few in my regulation ammo pouch. I buckle the blakeslee loader to my left side with the strap that goes over  my right shoulder. Being a 44 it is siginificantly smaller than the full size ones.

Sgt Scott

Thanks Sarg, I'll give it a try myself. 

[Two Flints]

Hi,

Thought these photos would be of some interest









Above is a six sided black leather wrapped metal box containing 10 tubes for Spencer cartridges. Box is 12" tall by 3.75" wide. One brass loop for carrying strap is missing. Has initials HMC and HC carved in side. Front of box is stamped Blakeslees cartridge box over U.S. over Patd. Dec .... the rest is too faint to read. Also shown is an original carrying strap with large hook and small hook for the cartridge box. Strap is about 1.25" wide and about 43.5" long with hooks. Leather has a crackled finish from age but it's still fairly soft and flexible.

Two Flints

[triple w]

Thanks Two Flints, I made up a couple of tubes today, I hope to do up a carrier that a post war civilian/ ex-trooper might have made. When I get it finished I'll post some photos. Thanks again guys.
TW  

[Sgt Scott]

I tried to post earlier, but the pics were too big. Here are the smaller ones.    I re-posted the photos for you; that's what I get the big bucks for   T.F.




                                        (Photos posted by Two Flints)

[Two Flints]

Sgt Scott,

More info on your ammo case from what you already posted.  Construction materials? How many rounds do your tubes carry?  Thanks for posting your original photos.

Two Flints

[Sgt Scott]

The ammo tubes are aluminum tent tubes cut to hold 7 44russian rounds with one end plugged by a 1/2 inch dowel. The Blakeslee loader is made of leather measured to hold 6 tubes and sewn at the sides. I originally made it to hold paper tubes and used them for a couple of reenactments before I made the aluminum ones. The fight tight enough, but there is no wood support. If I fell on it, I fear I would crush the tubes.
I 'hang' it on my left side where my sabre D-rings are. Everything is cut in rectangular shape so it was real easy to sew. The leather is light weight (same as belt or holster) but I don't remember the exact weight. I punched the holes down the sides with a hand tool. The cap is just a might larger, and covers the top by about 1/4 inch to keep rain out and is sewn on one side with a pistol latch on the other. Two strips of leather on the back hold the blanket straps on, which I use to strap it to my belt with. I didn't have a pattern, but I tried to make it look lilke the smaller ones I had seen pictures of.
I can remove the tubes, pour the rounds and return quite easily and on the field I do reload the tubes from my cartridge pouch when I run low. After carrying this one on the field, I don't think I would want to carry the larger on shown on this post. It does flop a bit when mounting and riding fast.

Sgt Scott

[triple w]

Thanks for the additional photos guys. I started my civilian loading out fit. I still need to make a lid, leather case and strap, but here is what I've done so far.
I didn't have the bits to drill holes in a wood block, so I decided to make a hollow box with PCV tubing as a guide for my metal loading tubes.
I made the tubes from a flagpole out of a small flage kit. After cutting them to length, I crimped one end to contain the cases.(see photos)
Each tube holds eight rounds, but I will normally just load seven as the carbine operates better with seven. I'll post updates as I proceed.








                                             (Photos re-posted by Two Flints)
TW  

[rifle]

Nice loading pouches. The original is the best even though Sgt. Scott has a cool one. Looks like thick leather and some "sewing" work fer sure. I wonder if the leather could be glued to wood and then the edges sewn once the glue dries?
I like yer loading tube get up TW but......if you're gonna be going out with Gen. Custer and the 7th Army I think you'd want more tubes of bullets. 
TW Your proto type is cool but......I think you need a drill press and a long ships arbor bit or something similar to drill a block of wood. A block of wood with six sides like that original. A nice block of hard maple or walnut or maybe even oak. It would be some "drilling" to drill holes that long in a block of wood that close together.  A drill press would be imperative.
Anyway.....if you're going to make one of those pouches you may as well go all out and make one as close to the original type as you can. Right? You gotta have a pard with a drill press and you should be able to find an old dried out tree that's down in the woods to chainsaw a hunk out for the wood. I know where you can get some kiln dried hardwood from a guy that deals in it. He's give you a nice piece of wood kinda cheap.
Ifin it were me I'd try to find brass tubing to fit those big cartridges in. Ifin they make that size. You know...some sort of "thin" tubing to hold down on weight. I'd imagine one of those pouches full of the cartridges would get a little heavy.

Anywhooooo.......cool endeavor...makin a period pouch. Knowing me....I'd just get a possibles bag and dump the cartridges in it and put it over my shoulder and ......get killed while loading one at a time in the middle of the meyley.   ha ha ha ha 
Back in "the day" those Spencer rifles would have been really good to have with so many others loading muzzlloading rifles. Almost unfair.   Alls fair in love and war right?   ha ha ha   The Spencer would hit a good bit harder than the "Henry".  Those dang Spencers would knock a horse down.

[Sgt Scott]

Of course we need to remember that this particular device was not patented until Dec '64, so it would have seen very limited use in the war.  Most of the reloading would have been one at a time and the troopers were not issued rounds in great number either. The arsenal packs hold 42 with 7 rounds individually wrapped and 6 of those in a pack.
Major-General James H. Wilson, who was instrumental in crushing Hood at Nashville (15-16 Dec. 1864) and defeated Forrest at Selma (2 April 1865), wrote the following about them: "There is no doubt that the Spencer carbine is the best fire-arm yet put into the hands of the soldier, both for economy of ammunition and maximum effect, physical and moral. Our best officers estimate one man armed with it [is] equivalent to three with any other arm. I have never seen anything else like the confidence inspired by it in the regiments or brigades which have it. A common belief amongst them is if their flanks are covered they can go anywhere. I have seen a large number of dismounted charges made with them against cavalry, infantry, and breast-works, and never knew one to fail.
Having said that, remember, when Wilson went to Selma, the troopers carried limited suppllies... 'Each trooper carried 5 days light rations, one pair of horseshoes and 100 rounds of ammunition on his saddle. We also had a supply train of 250 wagons, carrying 45 days rations of coffee, 20 of sugar, 15 of salt, and 80 roiunds of ammunition, besides 5 days rationss of hard bread and 10 of sugar and salt on pack animals". That's only 180 rounds for a major engagement.
Sgt Scott

[nactorman]

Although the averages may have worked out to roughly 180 rounds per man, it appears that soldiers actually engaged at Selma and Columbus were issued a greater supply of ammo than their average proportion might suggest. Accounts from both battles evince that extra ammo was issued to those troopers who were to make the assaults and that, in addition to the ammo carried in their boxes, they stuffed their pockets full of rounds.
  It is also interesting to note that prior to the launch of the campaign, Wilson drew up his corps and after a demonstration it was calculated that they could fire over 80,000 rounds per minute. It was with that calculation in mind, that he organized the raid and the necessary supplies. That said, the only reference I have ever encountered during all my research on Wilson's Raid that mentions a possible lack of ammunition is as relates to Croxton's Brigade, which was detached from the remainder of Wilson's command for much of the campaign.
  Anyway, good stuff... I was interested to get everyone's take on the Blakeslee boxes. I'll be doing a Wilson's Raiders impression at Selma and in addition to my cartridge box (not blakeslee), I will be using the "pocket pouches" for capacity and authenticity's sake!
  Charles Misulia
  Lumpkin, GA
  "Columbus, Georgia 1865: The Last True Battle of the Civil War" (Univ. of Alabama Press: Tuscaloosa, 2010)
   

[Two Flints]

Nactorman,

Check out this link.  Just scroll down to the Spencer pouches.  Just thought you'd like to see them.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,13374.0.html

Two Flints

[nactorman]

Thanks for posting that link. There is some good info there.
  Charles Misulia
  Lumpkin, GA

[Herbert]

on 17th febuary Wilson requested from Gravelly Springs Alabama for his cavalry to be equipped with Blakeslee cartridge boxes,in january the ordnance department was requested to send to Memphis Tennesse,for issue to the 2nd New Jersey cavalry 900 blakeslee cartrige boxes.the folowing month,the Memphis depot received1500 blakeslee boxes that were sent to Wilson  for the Selma raid ,these would have been the ten tube boxes,at this time there was also 500 6 tube boxes in service though i do not have record who they were isued to ,but at this time Wilson was geting every thing posible that he wanted so there may have been more Blakeslee boxes yoused than previsly thort as Wilson wanted as many cavalryman armed with Spencers & Blakeslee cartrige boxes as posible

[Capt'n Jack]

Getting back to the actual construction of the box, I do not think Oak or other hardwood would have been used due to the weight.  Poplar most likely.  The metal tubes were meant to fit loosely so wear would not be a problem.

As for drilling, I would think the boxes were constructed of long blocks of wood in which  grooves (half a hole to be clear) was routed in the wood and the blocks glued together to make the whole block (matching groves facing each other to make the tube holes). Much quicker ans simpler and without the problem of failure of a drill bit hitting a knot or other grain imperfection.

As for leather covering, leather was the hi tech material of the dayl, and there were many experienced leather workers who could sew up a beautiful seam faster then we can type.  It is a lost art.  I would think that one could quickly spend $50 on raw leather needed and that much on simple tools to sew it.  Finishing would add more.

All this said, with a repro box costing only $100 at the cheapest, I would only build one for the experience, and never to try to save money.  By the way, brass tubes are probably the best bet as they are less likely to spark.  Do not know if this was or is a problem.  Brass tubing is available from hobby shops and brass washers of the appropriate size could easily be soft soldered in to the tube end providing the appropriate drainage hole.  Best of luck to the brave souls who attempt this project.

[12 th Illinois]

I made a 10 tube Blakeslee Box with about $50 in materials. The block is drilled from a glued up block of poplar. The Marcot book states that Poplar was used in the originals. It took some blood, sweat and a few curse words, but I drilled all 10 holes without coming out the sides. Unfortunately the only tubing I can find at the moment is copper. Heavy but it works. Still working on something lighter.

[Sgt Scott]

Need pics!
The leather in mine [rectangular leather on] was spare parts from another project, so the cost was only about $3.00 and the leather is a bit thick. Great as a pouch, but to cover the wood, I would use something a might thinner. My wood working toolset is a bit limited, what size drill bit did you use (diameter and length please) and did you use a drill press?  I can cover the wood with leather simple enough, but getting the wood block and drilled holes is my major problem. Weight is a concern (my poor horse). That's 70 rounds and I'm sure I could get a couple of the 42 round packs on my person (or saddle bags), but it sure makes for a lot of boom and smoke
Thanks
Sgt Scott

[Bead Swinger]

When I got a Blakslee made by a friend (no wood), I got ahold of some sheet tin and roled my own tubes. They came out really good - I rolled about twenty, and soldered them with a torch.  'Not as nice as originals, made by a competent tinsmith, but still light and very serviceable.

If I recall correctly, I used 1/2" water pipe as the basis for the tube, wrapped it in tin, then cut the edge.  I didn't have access to a brake at the time,but it really wasn't hard to do.

[rifle]

I would think poplar would be a good wood for a cartridge box. I can see why the original had the metal wrapped around it. I can understand the leather covering too. The leather must have been waterproofed.
I can't see how a split wood piece could be routed to make the half holes and glued together when there would be three rows of holes so close together.
A ship arbor bit is made for wood I think. I drilled railroad ties with two sizes. the biggest was 1/2 inch diameter. That may be too small for something like a 56cal. case.
I'd try a machine shop supply place like "MSC" or a woodworking supply like "Woodcraft" to see about getting a long wood drilling tool.
I have a mill and could probably hack a bunch of wood offa a block to get fairly good six sided block. I'd drill first then do the six sided thing after than.
I have access to a sheet metal shop that I bet would think it an easy task to make a snug fitting six sided tin outer shell. Thing is.....my siz sided wood block would need to be precise to fit the siz sided tin cover outter shell.
I'd have to try to remember my math to draw out a six sided rectangle shape. 60% angles inside between each side?
Of course...I should go back to theat previous pic and see if that original has equal sides. Might be easier to drill the holes with the rows of 3 then 4 then 3 and just mill off what's not needed and have a tin outer shell made to fit what I ended up with. The mill would be a good thing to get the sides all straight with each other. I'd start with a block of wood that's got the sides planed parallel to start off. Four sides to begin with and drill the holes and then mill off the excess. If I couldn't get poplar I'd use maple I bet.
The more I think of it the more I'd like to take on the challenge of making a nice Spencer cartridge box.  What was the name of the originals? Were all the Spencer cartridge boxes made by the same manufacturer?
I wonder how difficult it would be to get a leather cover sewn around a six sided box? Sew it right on the box snug...take it off and soak it saturated with water and put it back on and set it outside in the sun? Then stain the leather black?
I can't tell exactly how the dang top is sewn together on that original. How are the sides of the lid cut to get them so they can be sewn to the top? Then...on the hinge whetre it connects to the body of the box......I see no rivets there. Rivets to hold the hinge to the lid but no rivets to hold the hinge to the body of the box?
Man.....it would be a little difficult to make an original type cartridge box. That's what I'd want though. A box made just like an original. Are they sold anywhere already made up? ha ha ha ha