'Real' Black Powder Colts...

[St. George]

Try Dixie and Numrich.

Often these firms would buy the NOS from discontinued lines - that's how Numrich came to own all those odd H&R parts, and Dixie has a couple of lines for Colt percussion guns.

Good Luck - and if you do find spares - be sure to post the location of where you bought them.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Fingers McGee]

I've had good luck with Uberti parts for a C series '51 Navy.  Hand, loading lever and a couple screws were basically drop in fit - only had to do a little filing to the hand's nose.  My C series '51s and F series '61s have Uberti Treso nipples on them.

Another source for parts is Earl Brasse - SASS 3562 - ebrasse@qwestoffice.net  He is also on this forum.  He picked up the last of the Sig Series parts which should/will fit 2nd Gens.

[Judge Roy Bean]

Thank you for your help. Nothing is broke at the moment but it's always handy to have some parts in the box.

[Doc Sunrise]

I enjoy collecting 2nd Gen. Colt Blackpowders, and have had an opportunity to speak to an employee of Val Forgett.  He shed some interesting light on the Series.  Regardless of the fact that Uberti has produced more Colt Blackpowders than Colt itself, Colt was relentless on its inspections of the "parts sets" holding Colts 2nd Gen. Blackpowders to a much higher quality.  Forgett, being a middle man, would receive parts back from Colt to be reworked until they met specs.  Imperato was able to rework parts into spec before they went to Colt inspectors, which made for less irritation for Colt.

All in all, Colt's 2nd Gen. Blackpowder Series seem to have been held to a higher standard than other modern day blackpowders.  However, this came at a higher price and also exposed the 2nd Gen. Series to problems that Colt had, mainly labor issues and poor marketing problems. 

This combined with the fact that Colt actually had a hand in final assembly and finishing 2nd Gen. Blackpowders along with all engraving and special series through Colt's Custom Shop, and all shipments were handled by Colt, makes the 2nd gen Series a little more special than the 3rd Gen. Series.  And don't forget the Strichman engraved specials.

[Duke York]

St George

A friend recently aquired a cased pair of  unfired as new 2nd Gen Colt "US Cavalry Commemorative" 1860 Army .44's with shoulder stock etc.

Against my advice, he has began to use them in CAS events. Last Sunday, whilst shooting a match, one of them broke a hand spring which I will replace when I remove the broken base of the spring, which has been heavily crimped.

The serial number is US1443. Is this an Italian or a later US made 2nd Gen?

Your assistance, once again, in identifying the origin of these revolvers would be greatly appreciated.

Duke York
SASS 15978
USFA CSS 199

[St. George]

Colt produced those Cavalry Commemoratives in 1977.

They'll letter to the Colt factory.

If you've read the above thread, the 'parts sets' were all produced 'for' Colt in Italy - but were finished and assembled 'by' Colt, so as far as the factory's records are concerned, they were made by them.

Incidentally - they built 3001 sets - this serial number falls right into the middle of the production run.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Duke York]

Thanks again St George

I believe these New Model Army revolvers should have remained unfired. Especially so, because of the case, shoulder stock and accessories. Collector value now diminished!

Vaya con Dios
Duke York

[St. George]

Commemoratives are just that - something to be set aside and displayed as examples of a distant time.

That said, however - there are many who say that if they can't shoot it or otherwise use it - then they won't buy it, so they buy with the express idea of using whatever it is they've purchased, and some do so to rub others noses in the fact that 'they' just don't care.

Then it could be that this individual couldn't believe that Colt would indeed make more...

Every production run of different Commemoratives has seen re-issues of less-engraved/less-plated weapons made up from the initial parts run - when those things get built is anyone's guess - but they 'do' get built and those are the 'Shooter Edition', so to speak.

In the '70's and '80's - there were a myriad of odd Colts and Winchesters made up using 'Commemorative' parts and/or wood, and that's where you see some true oddities as the factories were pushing out product.

Though not built as a 'Commemorative' per-se, Smith & Wesson's first run of their beautiful new Schofield featured an Oak display case, a Schofield 'coin', and all sorts of printed material.

However - that made for a pretty pricy revolver, and S&W wanted to sell some guns in order to cover all the R&D and marketing costs, so they switched to a cardboard box and even lopped off the long barrels of some of the 'Cavalry' models to provide the shorter 'Wells Fargo' barrels in hope that they'd sell.

Those were essentially the 'Shooter Edition' - and sales did pick up, but not by a whole helluva lot.

Another reason Commemoratives get to see the shooting range is that quite often - they're underpriced in comparison, since the common belief is that they'll never get shot and they have a very limited interest, so they have attractive pricing.

Never know...

If the piece is clean and well-cared-for, it 'will' be saleable - it just won't garner as much as an un-fired set right now - 'but' it will rise in value, because of the limited production.

Personally - I would not buy a 'Commemorative' - much preferring relatively plain pieces as they were originally supplied by the factory.

If I 'wanted' engraving - I'd special order it.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Doc Sunrise]

According to Dennis Russell's Price Guide, US Cavalry Set values are as follows:

NIB     -     $1500.00
100% (unshot without box)  -     $1250.00
98% (shot with light handling marks)    -     $950
95% (heavier handling marks, major turn line)  -  $650

[Fox Creek Kid]

Just my 2 cents but a commemorative of Italian parts will never be worth much, let alone in our lifetimes. As for posterity´s sake there is no real historical value.

[St. George]

We live in an 'Age of Instant Collectibles'.

Look at the trash 'Franklin Mint' and (I believe) 'American Heritage Foundation' and others churns out - plates, chess sets, cars and trucks, weapons  - and on and on and on - mostly made overseas, and all geared for the nebulous idea of 'investment'...

Most of that stuff gets paid for in 'easy installments' - yet soon finds its way to the garage sales and flea markets at greatly-reduced prices, where it languishes until it sparks a desire.

A factory-produced Commemorative (which is how both Colt and Winchester stayed afloat in the '70's and '80's) has a value, because of the 'factory' connotation - regardless of parts origin.

It's the fact that the 'factory' only produced so many and serial numbered them that counts - but the ability to actually tie it to the factory is what matters.

Colt has a sort of closet industry in providing 'Letters' at amazingly high prices - including to weapons recently produced (SASS Colts come to mind) - they must've been well and truly honked off when all those pocket serial number guides came about.

Other manufacturers charge nothing - or very little - for a records search, but Colt acts as though each letter needs to be hand-searched and transcribed by monks...

It does prove to pay off when acquiring the piece to ask for the box and any associated papers, though - those things are bringing serious money, and many were merely tossed.

For a great website of well-done reprints, go to:  www.rediscovered-shooting-treasures.com

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Doc Sunrise]

It is very unfortunate that Colt's 2nd Generation Blackpowders are so misunderstood and disrespected because of their "Italian Connection".   

[Willie Dixon]

I've just recently bought a replica Walker, seems great and she'll be awesome for SASS Frontiersman matches.  Got her down in Prescott and while I was talking with the owners of Bucky's they showed me a "gun I have to own."  I laughed and told them I was broke and thats why I traded my old carry S&W for the Walker.  Then they showed me a beautiful 2nd Generation Colt Pocket Model.  Needless to say I found $50 to put down on her to hold her. 

Big question though is there a way to tell by the serial number to double check if she's a genuine article?  I've always wanted a pocket model, and the fact she may really be a Colt is just the final nail to my last $50 lol

[Fingers McGee]

Then they showed me a beautiful 2nd Generation Colt Pocket Model.  Needless to say I found $50 to put down on her to hold her.  

Big question though is there a way to tell by the serial number to double check if she's a genuine article?  I've always wanted a pocket model, and the fact she may really be a Colt is just the final nail to my last $50 lol

Pocket Navy and Pocket Police model serial numbers fall between 48000 and 58564.  Baby Dragoons fall between 16000 and 17851.

FM

[Willie Dixon]

Thanks Mr. McGee, it's a Pocket Navy so next time I head into Prescott I'll take that reference with me!

[Fingers McGee]

Pocket Navies are serial numbered in even thousands (48000, 50000, 52000, etc).  6th Edition Blue Book of BP arms (2009) lists their value at:

NIB/100% - $600; 98% - $425; 90% - $250; 80% - $200

[Willie Dixon]

Thanks again Mr. McGee!
Then their pricing is right where I'd like it to be.  I have her saved at $280 but looks quite good.  I'm sure it's in the 90-95% range.  It functions flawlessly, it just has some scratch marks here and there near the screws and on the barrel where the lever connects.  And some wear lines on the hammer and hinge on the lever.

[Doc Sunrise]

Fox Creek Kid,

Just for the record, there were some Colt 2nd gen BP Stainless 1861 Navies that sold at auction last year for $9000.00!

[Appalachian Ed]

Fox Creek Kid,

Just for the record, there were some Colt 2nd gen BP Stainless 1861 Navies that sold at auction last year for $9000.00!

That was a waste of money!!! Think what truly historical piece you could have bought for the same money.

-Eddie

[Doc Sunrise]

There are Colt 2nd Gen Blackpowders that are historical as well as collectible, creating some very rare pieces.