Any interest in a reproduction circa-1885 Canadian Red Ensign?

[RattlesnakeJack]

I am in the process of getting quotes to have a custom flag made which will be a reproduction of the type of "Canadian Red Ensign" normally made and flown from about the mid-1870's through to the late 1890's.   I think it will be a nice bit of kit for my military re-enactment activities (which concentrate on that period) and also for use at Cowboy Action shoots.

By this post (and others elsewhere) I am asking whether anyone else - clubs, individuals, or whatever - might be interested in also obtaining such a flag for their use.  To keep costs reasonable, as well as in the interests of both convenience of use and durability, the flag would be of "modern" printed nylon or polyester construction - i.e. not the sewn cloth type which would actually have been made back then.  (It is still possible to have such flags made, but of course the cost skyrockets!)

A bit of historical background ......   In 1868 a Red Ensign was adopted by Canada - not as an official "national flag", per se (..... in fact, the Union Jack remained Canada's "official" flag until well into the 20th Century .....) but rather as a sort of unofficial flag to emphasize Canadian nationhood, as distinct from simply being one of many components of the British Empire.  As a result, this red ensign was frequently flown on government buildings and elsewhere.  The form adopted in 1868 incorporated a shield which displayed the Coats of Arms (at that time) of the four original Provinces in Confederation - i.e. Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec and Ontario, and in its simplest form looked like this -



The legislation authorizing the above design never actually changed until the first version of the Red Ensign most of us are much more familiar with was adopted in 1922, so this 1868 version remained the 'authorized' Red Ensign until that year ...... even though new Provinces were admitted starting with Manitoba in 1870, until there were nine Provinces when Alberta and Saskatchewan were established in 1905.   In actual practice, flagmakers usually made their own revisions to the shield to add new Arms to it as new Provinces joined Confederation.  As a result, after 1873 the Red Ensign actually flown usually looked like this - i.e. also incorporating Arms for Manitoba, Prince Edward Island and British Columbia.  This is one of the fancier versions, with the shield surmounted by the Imperial crown (which I like) but also often with a gold beaver below the shield and a wreath of gold maple leaves surrounding the whole works.  However, that much embellishment makes the flag much too "busy looking" in my view.



The artwork I have produced for this proposed project uses a crown-surmounted shield, but without the beaver and maple leaves like this:



So, back to my question - would anyone like to get such a flag for their own use?  I can get a "one-off" custom flag made for my own use for about CDN$110, but of course the cost per unit goes down if more copies are ordered.

I should mention that a modern-made flag of the official1868 design is currently available from "Dominion Regalia" here in Canada .... but their price is CDN$215 per flag, plus shipping!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

RSJ; Any idea of unit price at different order levels?  I am very much interested in your project.

[RattlesnakeJack]

Howdy, Sir Charles .... and anyone else who might be interested in this project.

First, something I neglected to cover in my first post ...... 

Would there be any more interest in the "official" 1868 version of the Red Ensign (i.e. the one with only the Arms of the first four Provinces) or in this type, which is unofficial?  I am of two minds on that, myself, but think I prefer this latter type which recognizes the seven Provinces which had joined Confederation as of 1873, and which was apparently quite common (although varying a bit from one flag-maker to another ......)

As a native of BC, I suspect you may also prefer this latter type.  By the way, did you notice the lower left sector of the shield?  That is how British Columbia was represented until at least 1896, when the province had finally adopted a Coat of Arms somewhat like now used (though not identical).  Thereafter, the flag-makers began putting out flags bearing a shield like this -

Many of these flags ..... though not all by any means ..... had the shield (and any other embellishments) centered in a white circle such as represented above - apparently because these devices were often printed on white cloth, which was then sewn onto the ensign.  (I have even seen an old ensign with the shield printed onto red cloth, which was then sewn into a corresponding opening in the body of the ensign, but that actually looked worse than being on a contrasting colour like white!)  At any rate, that is a variation I thought it best to simply eliminate.

As for pricing on multiple flags, I am actually finding it a bit hard to get detailed information .... so far at least!      For all of my initial inquiries (directed to several Canadian makers, plus one whose head office is in Australia, though they appear to have a US-based office or distributor) I used on-site inquiry forms on their websites.  However, I have only heard back from two of them, after more than a week.  Kind of annoying because, if I had used e-mail, I'd have my own record of exactly who I contacted and also specifically what I communicated to them.  As it stands, I have nothing!

However, of the two I heard back from, the Australian outfit quoted CDN$115, shipping included, for a single flag.  I e-mailed back asking about a prices for more than one flag of the same design, and they responded that if I ordered two, the cost would be US$75 for each .... but nothing on price breakdown for several flags!  (That is good to know for another project I have going at the same time - i.e. getting a club flag custom made - since we likely only want two.  But it doesn't help me much on this project, since i hope to have at least five or ten flags made, and as I recall I mentioned that in the quote request form I filled out.  Talk about pulling teeth!  Maybe they generally make only one or two of a custom design .....)
So, now I have to go back to them once more with that request ......  

The only other response received so far, from a place in Calgary, was more detailed but prices were considerably higher. 

I am now also going to contact a few US-based custom flag-makers, many of whom have some general price guidelines on their websites, which lead me to believe that it may be possible to get the unit price down even further .....

[RattlesnakeJack]

As an update, some re-designing is taking place, as a result of input and suggestions from other forums.

For one thing, I am seriously re-thinking my preference to "keep it simple" by leaving off the wreath of leaves, the beaver and the white roundel. The man who is likely the leading authority on the flags of that era (Alistair B. Fraser, author of "The Flags of Canada") states that throughout the entire period when the "seven province shield " was being used on these flags, all of these embellishments were almost universally incorporated into the ensigns made by all manufacturers.



To quote Mr. Fraser:.

  "By late 1874, the devices for British Columbia and Prince Edward Island had been added to those of the other five provinces. The resulting seven-province shield was, by itself, a marvel of quasi-heraldic clutter, but with the addition of a wreath and crown, it became a dog's breakfast of devices. Not content to leave it alone at that, the designers added a beaver to the base of the wreath. The composite was in the best tradition of Canadian compromise: a little something for everyone ....."
    -  -  -  -  -
    "The seven-province Red Ensign was flown enthusiastically and in great numbers across the country for a third of a century. It spoke of Canada, all of its provinces, and its relation to the empire. It was flown on ships, hotels, mine works, stores, manufacturing plants, and private homes. Many pictures survive showing it flying over the Victoria Tower of the pre-1916 parliament buildings."
    -  -  -  -  -
    "Usually the seven-province ensign is easily recognizable in pictures of the time by its familiar white roundel even when details of the badge are indecipherable. The white roundel was rarely used for earlier ensigns, never for later ones, and of all the seven-province ensigns the author has seen, only one early example did not place the badge on a white roundel."

Accordingly, even though my personal taste urges me to keep it simple, for this facsimile to be properly representative of the ensigns of that era, it would seem that it should indeed incorporate the full "dog's breakfast" displayed on a white roundel!

The project continues to evolve .....

[RattlesnakeJack]

Further update:

I have revised the Manitoba component (which in earlier times showed a running buffalo) and the B.C. crest (by opening up the wreath a bit) to make my shield more closely resemble the majority of originals I have seen in pictures, and substituted a better crown - i.e. more "Victorian-looking".   With a  late 19th Century image of a beaver (adapted from a patriotic table platter, of all things) below the shield and a wreath of maple leaves the crest, on a white roundel, now looks like this ...... (click thumbnail images to enlarge) ......



The full ensign would accordingly look like this -



Even though manufacturers began producing "nine-province" ensigns after about 1907 (i.e. with elements added for Saskatchewan and Alberta, once they had both been granted a Coat of Arms) I gather that the most commonly seen versions still had the "seven-province" shield, either because some makers didn't bother to change their design, or simply because so many people already had the earlier version.  So, even though there had been nine provinces for 9+ years when the Great War began in 1914, there were as many, if not more, seven-province ensigns in use during that conflict .....

I recently remembered that an original May 1915 issue I have of "The War Illustrated" magazine (British) features the first of a series of "Young Lions of the Old Empire" cover illustrations .... in this case a rather odd illustration of what purports to be a Canadian soldier.  It features a seven-province shield and, based on its overall appearance, I'd say it was heavily influenced by "file images" from the Boer War!  (For one thing, the crown surmounting the shield is a decidedly the "Queen's crown" used in the latter part of Victoria's reign ..... and she died in early 1901 ....  The artist was pretty 'loose' with the rifle, too - definitely not a Ross, and the bayonet looks a lot more like a P'1888 that the longer P'07 used on the SMLE ....)





The detail on the shield is admittedly pretty poor, but the New Brunswick component is missing its St. George's cross and seems to feature a sinking ship! 

[Icebox Bob]

I am interested in this as well.  Particularly if the price is less than the $100.00 point.  What size are we talking about?

Something that would have been displayed circa 1885 is of particular interest.

Cheers
Icebox

[RattlesnakeJack]

Bob:

Howdy, how's it goin'?

Size I have been pricing is the common 3' X 5' size. 

One web site even has suggested flag sizes for different flagpole heights, and that's what is recommended for flying at a height of about 16 to 20 feet or so, which I assume is what most clubs' poles would likely run .... either that, or around a 4' X 6' size, which I think is a bit too big, especially since the cost would go up quite a bit.

[Russian]

Sorry I missed this Rattlesnake, I would in pretty much anything.  I like the Red Ensign we all know and love, but would love something prior to the 1922 adoption.  Basically whatever is historically correct and/or 'defendable' to the know-it-alls, I am willing to chip in for a copy.

As for size, I think the standard 3x5 is a max.

[RattlesnakeJack]

Howdy, Russian!  Trust you wintered well?

With spring weather finally arriving, and so much to do around the house and at the range, the early red ensign project sort of got put on hold (in regard to my decision to re-do the wreath) but I will definitely be going ahead with it soon.

To confirm that this is not a pipe-dream, in the meantime a much simpler project - designing a Rocky Mountain Rangers "club flag" in conjunction with my cowboy action committee - went ahead and we got two copies of that made for $75 each.  Flew it for the first time at our monthly shoot on April 18 and it looked good!  I didn't get a photo of it up there .....  however, here is the artwork and a rather poor photo of the finished product right out of the package -

 

[Russian]

Yes, I wintered well, just trying to collect all the assorted pieces for this years uniform.  Its truly a global market these days what with stuff coming from all over the world.

Good job on the RMR flag!  I look forward to seeing it fly at Cactus Flats.

But yes, count me in on a Red Ensign when you get back to it!

[RattlesnakeJack]

Based on feedback from various individuals, and consultation with Alistair Fraser who wrote the history on Canadian flags, I had pretty much decided that the facsimile of the 1873 Red Ensign would feature the full "dog's breakfast" emblem (i.e. the seven-province shield surmounted by a crown and surrounded by a wreath with a beaver at the base, all on a white ground) - mainly because Dr. Fraser's studies showed that this was by far the most common format for the ensigns produced by all flag-makers of the period.  (In fact, he indicated he has only seen one seven-province flag without the white ground, ever ....)

However, if one studies actual original ensigns, what stands out is that the emblems were, for the most part, relatively crudely rendered - downright "amateurish" in many cases.  In most cases, the wreath surrounding the shield was composed of maple leaves on the left side and oak leaves on the right, rather than being all maple leaves.  (In many instances, these are so crudely rendered that it is difficult to tell what they are supposed to be!)  Also, the white background was almost never round, but instead tended to more or less follow the contours of the emblem.   Here is a montage of several such emblems I have located, to show what I mean - unfortunately, only the one on the lower right has a seven-province shield -



AS a result, I just wasn't happy with the earlier version I had come up with (i.e. with the very symmetrical wreath of maple leaves on both sides and centered on a circular white background) - it just didn't have enough of a "period look" to my eyes.  By the same token, I certainly didn't want my emblem to be overly crude ..... no matter how "historically accurate" that might be ..... so I have adapted an original wreath pattern (from the lower right emblem above) to make it more completely encircle the shield (like it does on most versions) and have also placed the whole works on a contoured white background -



With the above emblem, the final version of the ensign would look rather like this -



Comments?

Who wants one, in 3' x 5' size, at a likely price of about Cdn$55 plus shipping?

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I'm in!

[Russian]

I didn't say this on CGN Grant, but is that shield and white field a little small?  Should it not be bigger?

Apologies, but I don't have any thing to reference, its just a question.

[RattlesnakeJack]

Actually, Sean, I was worried that, if anything, I had made the shield and field too big .... perhaps due to unseemly pride in my composition of the emblem.  On most original examples of which I have seen photographs, the emblem in the fly is relatively small.....
(....  maybe out of a sense of shame for their relatively crude artwork.?    )

A number of those examples were various "commemorative" flags with an added image, marking such things as Victoria's Diamond Jubilee, a visit to Canada of the Duke and Duchess of Cornwall, and other things like this Boer War example -



It may be that such "commemorative flags have survived in higher numbers because they were only flown briefly, if at all.  If that type of flag was all that survived, one might wonder if the smallish size of the main emblem was the result of having to leave room for the supplementary image.  However, the commemorative flags do seem to be regular examples with the additional part added, and other basic ensigns of the period also seem to have a relatively small emblem.  Here are two examples, the one on the right being cropped from one of several photos Dr. Fraser sent me of a museum exhibition of some of his flags.  He described this one as the best example of a seven-province ensign he had ever come across - the shield is the one at lower right in the montage posted above, of which he also sent me a direct-on closeup ....

 

[Icebox Bob]

Me too!!   

[RattlesnakeJack]

Just a note that there has been one final revision, made in response to a comment made elsewhere ....
which actually touched directly on something which had been vaguely bugging me also .....
..... namely, that I consider making the shape of the white background a little less like a "hot water bottle" .... 

Here is likely what it now looks like - so it has a little bit more of the general rounded appearance
of the various original emblem backgrounds.
This is what will likely "go to press" -

[Charlie Bowdre]

Hi Folks
Sorry for jumping in on this at this late a time . I have been off the grid for about a month and a half . Just back and catching up .
I am VERY impressed with the ??Finished?? product.
Have I missed the order date??
Please advise.
Hay Russian , sorry we didn't get a chance to hook up . I did get several visits to the 'coffee shop' and shot out at a range to the NE? of Calgary but still pretty close to the city . may be back in the fall.
later.
Dutchy

[RattlesnakeJack]

Howdy, Dutchy!

Haven't placed the order yet, but soon .....  

Have been thinking I'd get folks to pony up at least a 50% deposit, so I'm not all alone with my neck stuck out on a several hundred dollar order which must be prepaid with the flag maker.  First I have to tot up how many "takers" I've got from the various internet boards and forums where  I've posted this, then get a price from the supplier.  As i am going to have to turn around and mail them all out to buyers after the order comes in, I'll need to add a bit on for my own expenses.  At present it is looking like the final "retail" price will be around Cdn$60 each - maybe a bit less.

In the meantime, our local club (Rocky Mountain Rangers, No. 4 Troop .... to give it its full moniker) has had a club flag made by the same maker, incorporating our stylized 'RMR' logo on a blue ensign.  We got two of those made, and they turned out every bit as good as we expected - below is a rather poor picture I took with one of them draped over something ......
(Plumb forgot to take a photo while the flag was flying at our April monthly shoot ....    )

[Charlie Bowdre]

let me know and I'll send out a money order , if that is ok with you??
Dutchy