Round Knife: Yes or No

[cowboy316]

and the man that recieved that gift is blessed to have a great pard like you JD
Cowboy316

[JD Alan]

That's been a while ago Tim; glad you could put them to good use.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

Danny R Marlin
1550 County Road 207
Blanket, TX 76432-5601
(254) 842-5405

this was the last address I known for him.

     Hello Annie

        Thanks for posting this information

               tEN wOLVES 

[Springfield Slim]

I have found that with a new blade of the thicker type in my utility knife that I can cut through 10-12 oz leather in one pass. If the curve gets too small I switch to the hooked blade. I do mostly holsters so I don't have too many long straight cuts. If I did saddles maybe I would use a head knife, but I just don't feel the need. The trick with the utility knife is to change the blades often, they're cheap and it saves time sharpening. If I feel the need to sharpen something I takes out my pocket knives. And I REALLY don't need another too around here that can maim me, I have enough trouble with my lathe, drill press, radial arm saw and such as it is!

[JD Alan]

Jim, I appreciate you sharing. I've been gravitating towards thinner blades, like the Stanley paper blade, which seems to cut better than the standard width blades. Then I read about the Bi metal blades and now I use those. I'll give a heavier blade a try for the heavier leather. Thanks, JD

[cowboywc]

Howdy JD
Just remember when cutting with the head knife, use the body not the arm to push. Don't ty to use a rubber cutting mat, the blade will just dig in.
WC

[JD Alan]

WC, what would you recommend for a cutting surface? I don't recall what Chan used, I was so busy trying to stay caught up I didn't pay attention to much else.

Bobby Rose, who put on the holster class at Tandy uses a "self healing" pad you get from a sewing supply store. My wife has a big one in her sewing room, but I know better than to try to "borrow" it 

[cowboywc]

Howdy JD
I cut one of those mats in half with my head knife.
I use poly cutting boards. My 6' one came out of a Pizza Parlor, the other came from a restaurant supply co.
I use a rubber tool drawer liner under them to keep them from sliding around.
See pix
WC

[JD Alan]

I have two used restaurant equipment stores nearby, so I'm going to give that a try first. Thanks for that idea and everything else!

[CQMD]

JD use the poly boards, they are the best. I used the self healing boards only because the poly board I use in my shop is  4' X 8' and covers my whole work area. It is a little hard to transport for a class and I wanted something to keep from cutting Donna's tables. Hope you are going to the class today at Tandys.

Bobby Rose

[JD Alan]

Hey Bobby, good to hear from you. Let me say again you did an EXCELLENT job teaching your holster class. Watching you use the round knife pushed me over the edge I was already teetering on. I picked up a good sized one at a restaurant supply in Portland today.

Just in case you didn't see them, here are the two holsters I made in your class. You remind me of WC in many ways, and believe me that's a compliment!

[CQMD]

JD those are great, when you see work as great as these then it makes teaching so much fun. I have been really jamed up this last couple to weeks, but should be freed up soon, hope you can come out to the shop for some real fun.

Bobby Rose.

[JD Alan]

I'm looking forward to doing that before too long. I've got to go up near Yacolt to pick up an espresso machine from a guy who repairs them, and it's such a ways out there from Sherwood I might as well make a wide swing around by your place. I'll email you to work out the timing. If I can help in any way while out there, I want to do so. I don't want my appearance to hold up production. Thanks.

[DUKE DEADEYE NUKEM]

 

[Chaa Duu Ba Its Iidan]

What I know about holster-making you could probably put in your pocket.

I know considerably more about knives and steel used to make knives.

A good rule of thumb is to NEVER buy a knife made of stainless steel unless you absolutely know with a high degree of certainty that the stainless alloy is acceptable.  There are not many stainless alloys that are worth a rotund rodent's posterior for making edged items, believe me.

ALWAYS buy carbon steel tools and KNOW the alloy you are buying.  Carbon Steel does not have to be exotic.  A good 1095 is fine.  D2 tool steel is better, but it is harder to get a good edge on.  However once you do, it stays on there a long time.  However, even these can be marginal, depending on the heat treat.  A good maker will tell you what his heat treat range is (and it should never be more than a 3 digit range or pass on it).  A good example of a working knife will be treated to something like 55-57 Rockwell C.  D2 should be up there around 57-59 Rockwell C.  Don't go for anything harder.  NEVER buy stainless.  If your supplier can't tell you the stuff I'm telling you, don't buy the product....that simple.

Most (I would say 90%-95%) of stainless knives and virtually all stainless tool knives are made of some variety of 400-series stainless steel, usually some sub-variety of series 420.  400 series SS (sometimes impressivly called "surgical" stainless steel) is used by commercial makers because it is cheap and is  easy on their tooling and they can produce more product before they have to dress their tooling or replace it.  In other words, the products made from this 400 series SS are junk, I don't care who makes it, sells it, how great it looks, how great anyone tells you it is or otherwise blows smoke up your butt about it.

If you actually DO get a good edge on 420, the edge doesn't last long and getting a repeat of that short-lived good edge is not guaranteed.  Why is that?  Because the alloy is so soft that trying to sharpen it is like trying to sharpen a stick of butter.

Most Damascus steel coming into the US today is made in India or Pakistan, whether it is carbon steel or Stainless steel.  It's crude stuff.  The rationale for using Damascus steel in our line of work just does not wash.  It's pretty and that's about it.  Go for something you know.

True Japanese "Damascus" is something else again.  It is carbon steel and you can see the layers if you look hard (maybe with a glass), but "picture" steel is not what it's about with them.  They'll fold the steel a jillion times, but for their true weapons and high-grade tools (chef's knives, too!!) their thing is to encapsulate a very had steel edge inside a softer covering (you can actually see the wavy line down near the edge).  So they get a hard, ultra sharp edge with the impact resistance and resiliency of a softer alloy around that.  The item will bend and absorb impact without shattering or snapping off.  This is an art form all by itself and is not what we need in our work.  It is incredible what they do with edged weapons.... almost spiritual.  Any commercial picture steel Damascus coming out of Japan should be of some quality exceeding the middle eastern stuff, but not what you want to work with, generally.  If it is Stainless Steel, even from Japan; even from the US, my advice is to stay away from it.

There are some good stainless alloys, such as AUS-8A and others, but there's really no reason in my mind to consider them.  A good carbon steel blade is what you need, even for the replaceable blades in craft knives, although I'll bet many of those are now cheap stainless.  Their blades are so thin and flat, however, they can be repeatedly sharpened easier than a real knife blade.

Oh, as far as a round knife for leather work.......those things scare me and I usually follow my gut feelings about stuff like that.

EDIT:
Okay, okay, before I get too smug and carried away,    we have to face some practicalities relating to what I stated above.

Most times, the supplier is not going to be able to talk to you about alloy content and heat treat numbers related to their standard, off-the shelf products.  If that is the case, I wouldn't worry about it too much other than to say that he SHOULD be able to tell you whether an item is Stainless or carbon steel.  If he can't do that, then my advice is to look elsewhere.  Also, the magnet test is not going to tell you anything.  Most implement grades of stainless will react to a magnet.

What I would be careful of is if you are going to buy a higher priced knife of any kind (I'm cheap, so I draw the line at about $50 or so). Also, if it's coming from a small producer, they should be able to talk about alloy content and heat treat.  Again, my advice is to stay away from stainless.

[Dave Cole]

Chaa,your new here and I don't what your experience level is with cutlery and steels.I have been a custom knifemaker
for about 20 yrs. and have been working steel for almost 40 yrs.My steels of choice are 1080,1095,O-1, and USA made Carbon steel damascus.
Having said that, I will agree with some of what you have said but your obvious dislike for stainless steels requires
that I say I say a few things.I will agree 420 ss makes for a poor knife steel but there are many fine ss,440-C, ATS-34,154-CM,S30v etc.
are all great steels.However these steels are usually only found in the custom end or the higher end production models.
Most of the production companies have thier own mix of alloys, but you will find alot of good ss used by companies
such as Strider Knives,Emerson Knives,and William Henry to name a few.The only problem I see with stainless within the
CAS community is it's lack of PC.

Again, I will disagree with some of your statements about Damascus.I will agree most damascus coming
from Pakistan and India is questionable at best,but alot of damascus is being made here in the states using
quality carbon tool steels.While looks may be the desired trait, these steels will cut and hold an edge just as
well as the tool steels used in the process.Just because 1095 for example is used in a bar of damascus doesn't
mean it will no longer cut like plain 1095.I agree to do the research on your steel purchases but not discount a whole sector
of steels.
The Japanese method you described is not actually damascus but is a process called "San Mai" construction and the wavy line
you descibe is not the outer layer but is called a 'Hamon" line and is a transition line of hardness.That line typically
is typically achieved by putting a clay on the spine of the blade when in the HT process.that line can be produced with clay by
using an edge quench,and somewhat by doing a soft back draw during the tempering process.

As far as stainless damascus I know several makers here in the US that are making very high quality damascus.

I was amused that you like D2 which in the cutlery field is considered almost stainless with about 11-13% chromium content and
is air hardened like stainless.
To end this I would like to say that I do agree with using a good carbon steel for your knives,just keep an open mind to other steels
and do your research.Dave

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

   This is a good subject, and maybe it will help some make a choice on what type steel blade they would like on their Round Knife or Head Knife, I would like to add to this thread, that being in the meat business for 45 years, I used every knife available to commercial meat cutting, and that was mostly Carbon until Stainless Steel became available, the high quality Stainless Steel knives that we used would hold an edge much longer than our Carbon knives once an edge was produced, the Stainless Steel was harder to produce an edge on, but once their it would hold up so much longer than it's counter parts, in the early introduction of Stainless, some cutters were leery, but after a short while most all had switched over to Stainless Steel, this was good for the industry also, it now meant that  Meat Cutters could now spend more time cutting and less time sharpening their knives, a sharp knife also translated to less aches and pains to the hands arms and shoulders caused by using dull knives, all that was necessary to true the edge was a good very smooth polished truing steel, it would true the edge right back to a razor sharp edge, of course stoning the edge was still done, but at longer intervals.

            I like carbon knives, but I find the quality Stainless Steel knives that can be had today to be the way to go, with all my years with using cutting steels, it is easy for me to tell how good a blade is, but this is due to my years of working with them , the period knives that are made today my knife makers here in the forum are surely of top of quality and then some, and as Dave and Chaa Duu Ba Its Iidan explained there are differences in steel.

                    Regards

                 tEN wOLVES  

[Chaa Duu Ba Its Iidan]

Chaa,your new here and I don't what your experience level is with cutlery and steels.I have been a custom knifemaker
for about 20 yrs. and have been working steel for almost 40 yrs.My steels of choice are 1080,1095,O-1, and USA made Carbon steel damascus.

Hi Dave,
Yes, I am rather new on these CAS forums and to the Leather Shop.  But, new doesn't make me ignorant in other areas of expertise.  I'm here to learn and to socialize, as most of us are.  That doesn't mean I will have any truck with being patronized.  Please don't do that.

As a whole, it doesn't look to me as if we are in disagreement, generally, with anything we said individually.  I do not disagree with your statements and from reading your reply, you don't seem to disagree with mine.  I feel comfortable enough with my knowledge, gained through practical experience and research over the years to say what I said here.  I wasn't attempting to reel off a dissertation on alloys used in knife making and their chemical properties.  This isn't the place for it and even if it were, there's always someone who is more knowledgeable than the last.  I said what I said for knowledge transfer purposes only and not for self-aggrandizement or any other reason.

My comments were addressed to the idea of commercial production items and I am not speaking about specialized production or custom blade work here.

Most people don't have any reason to know this stuff, but as users of implements, it does help to have some basic knowledge.  That's what I tried to convey and in so doing, my mind isn't and as I said, I wasn't suggesting, that anyone else's mind should be, closed to other alloys.  I did say there are good stainless alloys used in knife making, but as you said, "these steels are usually only found in the custom end or the higher end production models."  Generally speaking, however and again, as I said, for those leather-making tools that require a razor-sharp fine edge, commercial stainless steel products will be a poor choice.  My personal feelings about using high-end Damascus steel for leather-making tools is that it is an extravagance.  However, that doesn't make it wrong and if using a finely crafted Damascus tool pleases someone, I say, "Do it!"  Just be sure the Damascus used is good steel.

I only intended to cover the Japanese san mai process, generally, in understandable terms, to introduce the idea that it is different than a "standard" Damascus process.  Your coverage was more detailed.  Also, while I applaud your efforts to expand upon what I said and am glad that my limited comments regarding the D2 steel alloy provided some level of amusement to you, I trust that your amusement does not come from an assumption that my knowledge of the subject is limited, which is what your comments seemed to allude to.

You said you disagree with some of what I said about Damascus steel, but you didn't say anything different that what I said.  Read it again.  I said that Indian and Pakistani Damascus steel is generally of such poor quality that it's a mistake to consider any of it.  I didn't say that properly prepared and treated Damascus steel is no good, I am simply saying that most commercial Damascus items are not of good quality.  How is the average person buying something by mail order from a sizable supplier going to be sure of what they get?  They can't be, so don't do it.

Damascus steel is not a requirement for leatherwork.  Also, I stand fast on my statements regarding stainless for this work.  However, since you are a blade maker of some experience and are familiar with that specialized niche where certain good ss alloys reside, I suppose you could produce specialized, high-end-ss-alloy and Damascus tools for this trade and become a supplier to forum members and others.

[Chaa Duu Ba Its Iidan]

like carbon knives, but I find the quality Stainless Steel knives that can had today to be the way to go, with all my years cutting steel, it is easy for me

Hi tEN wOLVES,
I like a good discussion.  Agreement is not a requirement.  However, I would be crazy to say that the opinion of someone like you who uses (or used) a knife for meat cutting, for hours on end for decades and where a dull knife is a dangerous knife is wrong in regards to sharpness and edge holding ability vis a vis carbon vs. stainless steels.  I respect your opinion and I do believe that good ss tools are out there. I just think that having a basic knowledge regarding blade steel is useful to have.  I have a couple of excellent butcher's knives, which are ss and I do not know the alloy content and I think that's the factor.  These two knives are "professional" tools and were expensive.    Also, I'd be hard pressed to trade off my ss (ATS-34) Joe Cordova belt knife, which not only is a beautiful work of art, in my opinion, but also holds a very keen razor's edge for a very long time. 

I guess that I've always had such good luck with basic carbon steel knives and such poor luck with off-the-shelf-stainless knives that I've just stuck with what I consder to be the safe choice.   But, as I said before that's a general rule.  And, saying that will not stop me from buying (or making) and using a good stainless blade that I know the alloy content of.  My previouos and continuing experiences and research however, did foster a keen interest in me regarding knifemaking, various steels and alloys, heat treating and cryogenic treating processes of blades and steels.

But, right now I am trying to learn more about something I don't know much about:  Holster Making.  Soooo..........I willl just finally shut up and listen to everyone else about the real reason we're here!!.  Sorry to have hijacked this tiopic/thread.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

Howdy Chaa Duu Ba


       We should never be regretful of discussions like these, I like to keep an open door for thoughts and ideas that come from others, there is no one person that has all the answers, if one should get to that point, it would be too bad, because there is always something to learn,  things are changing every minute of every day, and with that said, I understand what you are addressing, I have seen Stainless Steel Knives that I wouldn't give a plug nickle for, it seems every bargain store has them, and they won't hold an edge much less let you get one, and I'm sure these are the knives you talking about, most my hunting knives are German made high carbon and polished, I'm not sure of the metal content, but they hold an edge, in the wild I've used them as a clever and skinner, basically one knife that does all, so there are differences in carbon too as well as stainless.
      In regards to Round knives, the first one I bought was a Tandy AS brand, I'm sure AS didn't have a thing to do with these knives, but his name was on it, so being new I bought it, after getting it home and taking a better look at it and giving it a try I found the blades edge to have a WIRE edge and a piece chipped off, this has been an old trick of sleazy knife makers for years, they put a wire edge on a knife to make you think you have a really sharp knife, but the first time you use it on something of substance the edge will just lay over, then when drug through a piece of pine to straighten the edge, the edge will some times break off, so I went right back, and exchanged it for an Osborn, there was that much difference in two brands, the Osborn has been a great knife, easy to sharpen and strop, and has given me good service, WC, has several great knives from different makers that have worked well for him too. not sure about the metal content, but what ever it is , these knives work well.


                     tEN wOLVES