Reloading with Pyrodex - What am I doing wrong?

[senormik]

Hello all,

I'm fairly new to reloading, and have no experience with black powder or substitutes.  I'm shooting a Chaparral 1876 in .40-60 Winchester.  Firing Buffalo Arms smokeless rounds, I get about 1.5" groups at 25 yards.  But shooting my Pyrodex RS reloads, I'm ending up with about 8" groups at the same range.  Not sure what the problem is, but because the smokeless rounds seem to shoot tolerably well I figure that my problem must be with my reloads.  I'm using Buffalo Arms 210 grain .406 diameter bullets cast for this caliber, lubed with SPG.  I'm filling the case through a drop tube to the point at which the powder is compressed about 1/8 of an inch when I seat the bullet.  Not using a wad.  Federal 210 large rifle primers.  Other than switching to real black powder (trying to use what I have on hand), can anyone suggest what I should do differently to get better results?

Thanks for your thoughts!
Michael

[Trailrider]

It's been awhile since I shot Pyrodex RS, but I wonder about your crimp.  Pyrodex requires good bullet "pull" which depends on both the tightness of the case neck and the crimp.  Obviously you don't want to crimp so hard that you collapse the case, but you should be able to see the curvature of the case mouth into the crimp groove.

Another variable might be to change to magnum rifle primers.  And while Pyrodex does require a slight compression, you may want to try going to, say, 1/16" or 3/32" compression.

You should be doing better than 8-inch groups at 25 yards!  You might just need to switch to something else, like 777.

Hope this helps a bit.

[Wolfgang]

I'd personally look to the bullets and the barrel before looking to alter the load. 

What does your barrel slug ?   What are the diameters of the bullets in the factory loads and the ones you are using in your hand loads. ?   How deep is the rifling ?  If the rifling is shallow hard cast bullets may shoot fine but soft cast ones not stabalize.  Just my thoughts on what I would look for first.   

[Blackpowder Burn]

With groups (or patterns  ) that large, it's likely a combination of several things.  All the above suggestions are excellent.  I think I'd particularly check bore diameter to make sure you have the correct bullet size (from exact bore diameter to 0.001" over bore diameter) cast from a soft alloy (20:1 or softer).  You might also try an overpowder wad.  I've also found I get significantly better groups with Pyrodex Select powder.  For real black powder, I like Goex Express for best accuracy.

[senormik]

Thanks for your thoughts on this.  One thing that I'm particularly curious about is why the Buffalo Arms smokeless powder rounds shot MUCH better, using the same bullets and cases?  Assuming that the bullets are properly lubed for black powder, could the simple switch between smokeless and pyrodex really make that much difference?

[Blackpowder Burn]

It could.  All the items mentioned can have a major effect on accuracy with black powder.  Amount of powder compression, overpowder wad, amount of crimp, granulation of powder, Select or Express versions which are more uniform in grain size.  A combination of all these things can make a tremendous difference.

One thing that just occurs to me is: did you thoroughly clean your gun after shooting smokeless ammo and before shooting the black powder loads?  The combination of the smokeless and BP fouling makes an incredible gunk that will quickly foul the bore so that you couldn't hit a barn at 50 yards.  For cleaning BP fouling, I like a 10:1 dilution of Ballistol and water.  Folks term this "moose milk".  Don't clean BP fouling with oil based solvents and lubricants.  Ballistol or similar materials work very well instead.

[senormik]

Ah ha.  I did actually shoot some smokeless rounds just before firing the black powder rounds.  I'll be sure not to do that next time, and will try some loads of varying compression.  Thanks for the info!

[Blackpowder Burn]

Let us know what happens.  I'll be curious to find out.

That happened to me the first time I loaded and shot BP ammo.  Not knowing any better, I shot my rifle with smokeless as part of load development.  I then changed and started shooting ammo loaded with BP.  After a few rounds I couldn't hit the target at 25 yards and later had to hammer a cleaning rod down the bore.  I took me quite a while to figure out what happened - it was long before I found this forum.

[senormik]

Well, I varied my compression between .060" and .200" and my accuracy didn't improve.  I was very precise in loading my rounds and fired from a bench rest fully-supported position.  My first nine rounds were weighed exactly (42.5gr Pyro RS) resulting in about 1/8" compression. The first shot didn't even hit the target at 25 yards. The four after that gave about a 12" pattern all over the target. Interestingly, though, the last four shots tightened up considerably, going into about 2.5". I started wondering if the rifle likes a dirty bore for some reason.

After that, I shot four rounds of 39.5 grains and four rounds of 41.5 grains, to see what less powder compression would do. Groups were about 5" with each load at 25 yards. Then I wiped the bore with one wet patch and one dry patch. After that, I fired four more rounds of 42.5 grains, and then four rounds of 43.5 grains to increase the powder compression a bit, marking each shot on the target. Group size initially opened up. The last shots went into about five inches again. Frustrating.

So varying the powder compression didn't seem to make much of a difference. When I got home I cleaned the rifle and finally slugged the bore. Probably shoulda done this first, as you suggested. The largest diameter of the slug came out at .406". The groove in the slug was .399" So if I understand correctly, that translates to a barrel diameter of .406" in the grooves and .399" across the lands? The bullets I was shooting were .406" diameter, SPG lubed, and cast 20-1 according to the box. Do I need a .408" bullet to achieve any sort of accuracy? Weird thing is that the same bullet fires just fine in front of smokeless powder.

[Cuts Crooked]

I'd definately try a .408 projectile. What you are seeing with the smokeless rounds may be siimply the bullet slugging up more with the fast/hard kick in the pants that the smokeless loads are giving it, allowing it to grip the rifling better.

[Ranch 13]

 Folks over on Cast Bullets told you to go with .408 bullets, several times
Also pyrodex needs an awful lot of compression to even come close to working as good as either real black or smokeless.
Be sure to use a wad between your pyrodex and bullet.
Probably better go into that barrel and do some serious lead mining, can't help but think the innards of that thing looks like a water pipe by now.

[Ranch 13]

 Using an old chart from Hogdons, to get the 60 gr black equivilant using your RS pyrodex, the charge needs to be 48 grs.

[senormik]

Yeah, I got a pretty good going-over on Cast Bullets for not paying close enough attention.  And a fair one, at that, I think.     I've now got some .408" bullets on order from Buffalo Arms, so I'll try those next.  I'll need to look into a compression die as well, to get the kind of compression that would let me get 48 grains of Pyrodex into the case.  Wads at that point, too.  That will have to be the next pay-period.  My barrel doesn't seem to be particularly leaded, which was one reason that I wasn't sure about the .406" bullets being a problem. 

I'll say here what I said on the other site:  I do appreciate the help I've been offered.

Sincerely,
Michael

[Ranch 13]

If you put a jag on a cleaning rod and a clean white flannel patch on that jag with just a bit of lite oil of somekind on the patch and run it down that bore, if you get any greyish color on the patch, you've got lead. Quickest handiest lead remover I know of is pure gum spirits of turpentine . Put some on a good heavy patch and run the patch thru the bore on a jag. Then a couple of dry patches, and repeat until the patches don't change color or have flecks of lead on them.
Might look at these guys for bullets www.montanabulletworks.com

[Grapeshot]

You have had some good advise here.  One of the best ways to get Pyrodex to work well is to fill your case to within an eighth of an inch, .125 inch, of the top of the case mouth and use your compression die to conpress your powder until you can seat a bullet on top of the powder collumn.  Make sure you use a good Magnum large rifle primer.  

If you still do not get good results, try drilling the flash hole with a 3/32nds bit to get the fire through the compressed powder.  I found that it works like gangbusters after reading Wolf's book on reloading .45-70 ammo like the arsenals did back in the 1880's.

Enjoy.

[44caliberkid]

No one has stated the obvious, so I guess I'll draw some fire.   Quit using Pyrodex!   It's crap!   Dump the remainder in your flower garden.

[Montana Slim]

No one has stated the obvious, so I guess I'll draw some fire.   Quit using Pyrodex!   It's crap!   Dump the remainder in your flower garden.

I'd have to second that. Tried Pyrodex in my Sharps years ago....even with several iterations of test loads, it never equalled ANY of my results with True BP.

Regards,
Slim

[Montana Slim]

I'd have to second that. Tried Pyrodex in my Sharps years ago....even with several iterations of test loads, it never equalled ANY of my results with True BP.

Regards,
Slim
But rather than dump it, use it in a cartridge or ML scattergun. Folks give my Pyrodex regularly & thats what I use it for.

[Grapeshot]

When I got back from Germany in 1988, I began experimenting with paper patched bullets.  I didn't have any Goex FFg available to me but I did have a couple of cans of Pyrodex RS.  I loaded up some .45-70 cases with 65 grains by volume and a 475 grain paper patched swaged bullet.  I was able to put all five rounds into the black of an eight inch bull at 75 yards.  I'm sure that I could have got them all in the bull even at a longer distance, but I was limited to the public range I was using at the time.

Pyrodex can work well so long as you compress it and use a magnum rifle primer.

[Short Knife Johnson]

I shoot Pyrodex RS in my Shiloh 45-90.  With the Postell bullet mixed 1:30, SPG lube, Winchester Magnum primer, and only compressed .070".  My groups on the average hold 3/4 of a minute all the way out to 700 yards.  That's the farthest I've had opportunity to shoot it.  So nobody can tell me that Pyrodex cannot be made to shoot.

The ironic part is that I was cooking up a Pyrodex load to use as a back up for when I would run out of black.  I just couldn't justify moving on when I printed a 200 metre group that measured 1.75" with four bullets touching out of the six fired.

I would simply sugest to switch to a hotter primer.  I ind Pyrodex is harder to light.  Then back off the charge for less compression.