Shooting from the hip

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

I guess if you're not any good at it, you wouldn't like it..............................

Bill, Aka....OCB

[Dutch Limbach]

Beyond the Safety Issue, has anyone got any DOCUMENTATION of shooting from the hip occurring during a period gun fight?

If it can't be documented why would an organization that promotes Historical Authenticity allow such a shooting style at a sanctioned shoot?

[Deadeye Don]

Personally speaking I dont have a problem with "hip shooting" once and a while, but I think it should be for accuracy only and NOT timed and only at clubs that have a proper berm.  Having the stage untimed would allow everyone to be more cautious.  I actually have more concern about stages requiring you to use your non-dominant hand.

Since I have been in NCOWS I have never had any concerns about people doing dangerous things at our GLFMC shoots or for that matter at the SMVS matches either.

[Irish Dave]

Slim:

I hear you. I don't think that's going to be a problem. Seems to me most folks could see from our recent Nationals (with a couple of stage exceptions) that there are plenty of creative ways to add variety and novelty to a match without having to resort to potentially unsafe gun-handling.

******

I guess if you're not any good at it, you wouldn't like it..............................

Well, that may be true in some cases, Bill. But I guess what I'm saying is that "If you're not any good at it...a match where dozens of other people are standing around closeby is probably not the place to learn."

******
Don: I agree, I think our matches are generally very safe. I am still a little uncomfortable, though,on those rare occasions when folks are asked to hip shoot who are not accustomed to it. And I agree 100 percent on the weak hand issue.

*******

TJ:
That would seem to be a simple solution, but how would you explain to others that allowing a few "uncomfortable" folks to shoot the stage normally did not give them an unfair advantage? Aren't you afraid that would open a big can of worms?

[kflach]

For the record, as I've read through the considerations listed in this thread I'm become convinced that our Texas Ten Horn range isn't set up well for this type of shooting. Therefore, I'm not advocating that *we* do it.

However, for purely academic discussion, I'd like to address the "documentation" question:

I'm sure most of you have done deeper research than I have, but to be honest I haven't read *anything* that mentioned what specific stance was used. The articles will say that person A shot person B in the back. They don't mention whether he was using a modified Weaver shooting stance or a Combat stance or a Low-High pistol Shooting stance, they just say who shot who. I've read that there were schools that taught formalized dueling during the 18th and 19th centuries and no doubt they taught specific stances but based on human nature, which hasn't changed, it's reasonable to expect that only unusually newsworthy stances would be recorded anywhere other than the documentation from those schools or military manuals.

The "nature of the beast" as far as our time period goes (and it seems well documented) was that many people weren't formally trained and most people did anything they could to get the drop on their target. We know shootouts occurred in a wide variety of environments, a wide variety of light conditions, and with the involvement of a wide variety of people and weapons. The fact that it's taught to our law enforcement people today demonstrates that in some cases shooting from the hip may be necessary and viable. Therefore it's very reasonable to assume that shooting from the hip occurred occasionally during our time period.

Human nature and our desire for survival hasn't changed since our time period, so if authenticity is the goal then it seems it's very authentic to try whatever we can - within the limits of the technologies of the time - to get the drop on our targets.

Viva Tom Jack!

[Dutch Limbach]

Personally speaking I dont have a problem with "hip shooting" once and a while, but I think it should be for accuracy only and NOT timed and only at clubs that have a proper berm.  Having the stage untimed would allow everyone to be more cautious.  I actually have more concern about stages requiring you to use your non-dominant hand.

Since I have been in NCOWS I have never had any concerns about people doing dangerous things at our GLFMC shoots or for that matter at the SMVS matches either.

Don,

What concerns me about hip-shooting is, the shooter is not aiming at a target. Rather the shooter is pointing and guessing where the bullet is going.

Shooting with the weak-hand is a different matter for a few of reasons. 1. While using your weak hand may feel unfamiliar you are still taking an AIMED shot. 2. There is at least one well documented occurrence of it having happened, the Luke Short - Jim Courtright duel in Fort Worth on February 8, 1887. And 3. Anyone that carries a firearm for personal protection should spend some time using it with their weak-hand (as evidenced by what happened to Courtright! Whenever I practice with my PP guns I always run a couple of clips through it using my weak-hand.)

kflach,

There are descriptions available in primary documents. Of course none of them mention the Weaver stance since it wasn't developed until the 1970s. Many of the Lawmen, Outlaws, and Civilians early in the period HAD received military training in the Civil War. There was a "standard" for them to use as an example.

[kflach]

Dutch,
I agree that there are documents that support certain stances - like the military training materials. I also am aware that the stances I listed (included the Weaver) are modern. I used those stance names merely as a form of exaggeration to emphasize a point; that the specific names of the stances used in various reported instances of gun fights, battles, ambushes, murders, massacres, etc. often wasn't reported in the media or diaries or testimonies of the witnesses. I suspect you agree with me on that.

I agree with you that documentation is important in one's quest for authenticity, and I see that with many, many things there is more than adequate documentation available to serve as guidelines for how we (NCOWS) do things.

However, sometimes the available documentation is limited. For example, I've seen a number of threads in this forum where we talked about an item in a picture but didn't know either how it was made or how it was used. I've also seen many images that defied what was expected; we've all read threads that included phrases similar to, "well, this just goes to show that as soon as you say no one did this someone will find a picture that proves they did." I've been in the military and seen first hand that no matter how good your training was, you sometimes have to improvise. In fact, ability to improvise is essential to successful military activity over any period of time - especially against guerilla warfare or other forms of fighting that you haven't previously experienced. Therefore I look at the military training and documentation as a starting point (just like you do) but not necessarily as a defining or limiting point.

We agree on much, but I guess I'm a bit more willing to improvise based on the nature of that era - as long as it's 'practical' and 'reasonable' within the constraints of the documented technologies and traditions of the time, and as long as it's safe.




Hmmm. Reading back through this makes me think I'd better re-emphasize that I don't think my views are better than anyone else's because they're not. They're just from a different, equally valid viewpoint. And they're offered only for academic discussion purposes. The only one who can decide whether it's more important to follow 'the spirit of the law' than follow 'the letter of the law' is the one who makes the law and in this case that, my friend, is the whole NCOWS organization. So as it stands at this moment, we are both right.

If there are other primary documents that describe how people shot at each other I'd love to know. I want to become more knowledgeable about this, and I have much to learn.

[Irish Dave]

Pards, this is one of the greatest things about NCOWS and one of the things that I believe differentiates it from some other organizations -- and that is the ability for us all to state our opinions, debate the various issues at hand and even argue the finer points of them, but all done without the ungentlemanly use of "flaming", personal attacks, name-calling, and generally disrespectful behavior.

Damn, I'm proud of this outfit.

[Tjackstephens]

You know when it comes right down to it. Each shooter must shoot the stage the best he can and as safe as he can. As a shooter that is there to have fun, but to do the best I can and as safe as I can. I must be the one that either shoots the satge as written are just take the misses. Taking the misses is hard, but each shooter should know what they can do or can't do safely.

OCB, I don't have any problems shooting from the hip or with my weak hand. Quite good at it matter of fact. Shooting one handed is a different story. Problems with my right hand and wrist, depending on the condition of that hand, some days I can shoot pretty good one handed. Other days the hand is in such a shape it would not be safe.. I just don't think it is safe for some people. Two years ago at the National we had a stage where you held something in your off hand and shot one handed. The stage marshals informed each posse that if some one had a problem that could lay the item down and shoot with both hands. Just my thoughts. Tj

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Pards, this is one of the greatest things about NCOWS and one of the things that I believe differentiates it from some other organizations -- and that is the ability for us all to state our opinions, debate the various issues at hand and even argue the finer points of them, but all done without the ungentlemanly use of "flaming", personal attacks, name-calling, and generally disrespectful behavior.

Dam....damn, I'm proud of this outfit.

Dave...Awe Shucks!!

Dutch...yer right...I haven't seen any documentation to the effect that there was any hip shooting going on....haven't seen much documentation on shooting at steel targets either.....in the heat of combat you shoot any way you can to get the desired effect, I've been in that situation!

As Books pointed out, I hit six out of six with the rifle from the hip....what he didn't say is that I missed all five shots at a eight foot tall silhouette target at five feet with a pistol...we came to the conclusion that I had bent the barrel on the pistol sometime that day

Bill

[Tascosa Joe]

My wife and I attended the 99 Nationals.  She was still shooting at that point.  One of the stages called for shooting with the weak hand, boys and girls, I would not let Kay shoot with her weak hand if some one was paying good money.  Some people just dont have the strength or coordination to shoot like that.

Irish Dave, I am with you, these discussions without anyone getting mad are what makes our organization great.

When you read about the gun fights during our time, very few were stand and face each other and shoot it out.  Most were go into the bar see your enemy, pull your gun and shoot him behind the ear or in the side while he was not looking as in the case of Dallas Stoudinmire or be back shot while taking a leak by your wagon as in the case of Pat Garrett.

T-Joe

[Dutch Limbach]

The improvisation part of hip shooting was done by Hollywood for their B Westerns. It keeps the gun from obscuring the handsome face of their movie star!

While I agree wholeheartedly that improvisation under fire is critical, we do have this statement that I quoted earlier on this type of improvisation:
"In all my life as a frontier police officer, I did not know a really proficient gunfighter who had anything but contempt for the gun-fanner, or the man who literally shot from the hip. In later years I read a great deal about this type of gunplay, supposedly employed by men noted for skill with a forty-five.

From personal experience and numerous six-gun battles which I witnessed, I can only support the opinion advanced by the men who gave me my most valuable instruction in fast and accurate shooting, which was that the gun-fanner and hip-shooter stood small chance to live against a man who, as old Jack Gallagher always put it, took his time and pulled the trigger once."
Wyatt Earp made this statement near the end of his life in 1920

And I agree with Tascosa Joe's about how the majority of gunfights really went.

...haven't seen much documentation on shooting at steel targets either...

OCB,

Do you have a documented alternative we could use en lieu of steel targets? If you do I for one would be interested in trying it.

[Books OToole]

For combat/law-enforcement, as a general rule, the closer your advasary, the sooner you pull the trigger after clearing leather.

At one yard, you fire from the hip.
At five yards you extend your arm a little.
At seven yards you shoot from point shoulder.
Beyond seven you use your sights.
(If I was at my 'library,' I could give you historical old west examples of each.)

But not of that really applies to WAS.

Books

[kflach]

Well Books, that opened up a whole new can of worms. I didn't know what a "point shoulder" was so I looked it up online. In the Wikipedia article on "Point Shooting" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_shooting) I found a section titled "Aimed Point Shooting or P&S (Point & Shoot)" In that section they have a link to an article that has documentation that at least some of the elements of point shooting were described in documents dating as early as 1804 (http://www.pointshooting.com/history.htm). They have links to some of the original books as well as a scan of an excerpt from an 1835 shooting instruction book (a quite interesting little excerpt I might add).

This is some very interesting new information

I realize Wikipedia isn't the most accurate source of information but it does offer a basic "big picture" and often has links to documentation that is useful and genuinely authoritative.

For the record, I personally wouldn't want to shoot lead at steel targets that are only one yard away from me.

[Books OToole]

For the record, I personally wouldn't want to shoot lead at steel targets that are only one yard away from me.

I agree:  But is real fun with paper targets.
Its like the holes are magicaly appearing in the X ring.


That is one of the historical cases I remember off the top of my head.

When Ed Masterson got shot, and he returned the favor, the shooters were so close that Ed's clothes were set on fire.

Books

[Pancho Peacemaker]

This photo is the historic basis for my revolver shooting exploits:



I must say, that his off hand would be subject to some recurrent and unpleasant powder burns.

Pancho

[Dutch Limbach]

For clarification, I don't have a problem with the point and shoot at targets a very close range. (Which is probably how the vast majority of gunfights played out.) In fact SHB will tell you about a shoot we were at where the shoot sat on one side of a poker table and shot a IPSC cardboard target on the other side of the table. When I shot it the BP loads in my 8 1/2" Remington left the target smoldering. SHB enjoyed it so much I let him shot the stage with my Remiington too. What I am concerned about is shooting at targets set out a ways.

Here are some illustrations from the period of gunplay. If anyone has more I would be interested in seeing them.

Three illustrations that were in Harper's Magazine:






And two from Frederic Remington:

A Fight In The Street.


The Drop

Also, for your viewing pleasure, Thomas Edison's "The Great Train Robbery" filmed in 1903. It's in three parts on YouTube:
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

[Montana Slim]

This photo is the historic basis for my revolver shooting exploits:



I must say, that his off hand would be subject to some recurrent and unpleasant powder burns.

Pancho

I have to honestly say...I've actually seen the above technique used more than once at a cowboy shoot....Usually, they determine this isn't the best approach after the first shot, but I observed one lady continue to fire this way all day. I attempted to DQ, but was overridden since she didn't acually sweep herself or anyone else with the muzzle at any time.

For those not aware, point-shooting is used in several other competetive combat shooting sports. I'm not aware of any history of safety issues.

Slim

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

   I've done this practice many times, to make it safe, as I posted before, you would only have to be closer to the targets, and use WAX BULLETS, loads are checked anyway, and for this, a dedicated gun should be used, most all of us have an extra gun that can be used just for wax loads, when I shot from the hip, my arm was extended to the front of me, but away from my side,and just in front of my hip, your gun is about waist level with your gun in about the same position as the front of your foot or slightly further if you bend your knees when you fire, this isn't a Los Vegas stunt, where the shooter just gets the gun barrel out of his holster and then fires right from his hip, that would be unsafe even for wax loads, when this practice is done the way it was meant to be, it's very safe, but I will say that folks that wouldn't be comfortable doing this shouldn't have to, they can shoot there normal style, or maybe have a side stage for this only for bonus points, anyway whether it can happen or not, it's something roll around.

            Regards

       tEN wOLVES  

[Dutch Limbach]

If you have somewhere to do this safely. What would be an interesting experiment is to get a couple of 50 yard pistol targets. Set one at about 20 feet and take 5 shots on the clock from the hip. Then post the other target at the same distance and take 5 shots on the clock the way you normally would shoot your pistol in a WAS match. Take the score on each target and divide it by time it took to shoot 5 shots to get your score. For example; your score on a target is 48 and it took you 6 seconds to shoot the target your score would be 8.

kflach,

I read that article you linked to. When I was in the gun business a coworker introduced me to that theory. Having access to a range on the job, I did try it a few times. But I just couldn't get the hang of using my middle finger as my trigger finger. I'm not saying it won't work. I am saying it doesn't work for me.