Blackpowder accuracy in 50-95

[jinglebob]

Hello everyone,
     I am new to this forum and must say that i have found it very informative.  I have a cimmarron '76 in 50-95, and have been pulling my hair out trying to shoot blackpowder accurately from it.  I have tried the smokeless powders that i know of that can be used safely, IMR 4198 stuck 3 out of 5 in the barrel even after tipping the muzzle up between shots.  AA5744 did not burn consistently thereby making accuracy non-existant.  IMR trailboss actually shoots pretty accurate compared to everything else i have tried, (2 inch 5 shot group at 50 yards from a bench), but it is such a wimpy powder in my opinion, having tried it in my 45-70 sharps and also in my colt single actions in both 44-40 and 45 colt.  I want to shoot black powder in the 50-95 to have a true feeling of what it would be like to shoot this gun in the day that it was a force to be reckoned with......trouble is, accuracy is about a 16" group with either goex FFg or goex cartridge at 50 yards.  I have slugged the bore and it is .509, therefore i use .510 , 300 grain bullets 20-1 temper with SPG lube.  This bullet has only one lube groove.  My question is, Is a lube disk required in this load to make it accurate?  Has anyone else had this problem?  Any input will be appriciated.  Thanks.

[Doc O]

I'll be shooting one in about 2 weeks.
For your load, 1 gease groove isn't much lube.
You might try a grease cookie or maybe better yet a different bullet that will hall more lube.
With that bullet your all out of lube before the bullet can get out of the barrel and that will leave
you with a dry burnt powder for the next round.
Others may help better but thats what sounds like is happening.
Doc

[Buck Stinson]

I don't know if this is going to be of any help, but I shoot original 1876 Winchesters in .50 Express on a regular basis and I use only black powder.  My powders of choice are either Elephant or Goex in 2F granulation.  You didn't mention who's cases you are using, but for the past 35 years, I've reformed .348 Win brass and never had a problem in any of my original guns.  The powder charge for the Express caliber is usually around 82 grains, only because the .348 case is HEAVY DUTY and will not accept more than that.  Again, your brass may accept a bit more powder.  I always drop my black powder through a drop tube.  It settles the powder evenly from case to case and just seems to work better for me.   I cast my own bullets, using original Winchester bullet molds and reload the ammo with original Winchester nut cracker tools.  I have both RCBS and C&H dies in all of the 1876 calibers, but the original tools work MUCH better, at least for me.  These bullets are cast to the original specs, which was 16-1 and I always use a grease cookie.  The bullet weigth of course, is 300 grain and depending on the gun and how good the bore is, I might size at bore size or .001 to .002 over.  I NEVER use wheel weights, only pure lead.  One thing I have noticed with several of my original Express caliber guns is the fact that the bullet doesn't seem to stabilize until it is out 75 or more yards from the muzzle.  I can take any of my 1876 Winchesters in this caliber and not have any accuracy until the bullet reaches beyond 75 yards.  I have a theory as to why this happens, but I don't think that is important just yet.  If I try to hit a 12" pie plate at 50 yards with my original guns, it would be difficult at best.  But, at 150 yards my targets are 5 shots in 5 inches with barrel sights.   Again, I don't know if this can be of any help, but this is what I've done for years.  I think I would start by using a grease cookie.  If that doesn't help, change your bullet size and then your bullet mold.

[jinglebob]

Thanks Buck and Doc for the advice.  I am using jamison 50-95 brass and getting 80 grains of Goex FFg or 82 grains Goex cartridge using a drop tube and a .060" vegetable fiber wad at the moment.  I havent bought any molds yet as I wanted to see what would shoot first.  The bullet is also from buffalo arms and i havent been able to find the correct weight for the original factory loading with more than one grease groove but i suspect it is a lube problem and hopefully the grease cookie will solve things.  Also, Buck, i never thought about the bullet stabilizing further out, I have not tried the blackpowder loads out past 50 yards yet, I will give that a try and let you know how things turn out.  Thanks again.

[ndnchf]

FWIW, my best accuracy has been with Swiss 1.5 powder. I've used the Lyman 515139, MT Baldy Mystery bullet

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,24588.0.html

and the Rapine 350T.

Best accuracy isn't anything to brag about - 3" groups at 50 yards, 6" at 100 yards (on a good day).  But all three bullets seem to give similar accuracy.  I use a .030" card wad, a little compression, Federal 210 primers, pearl lube and Ten-X brass.  I tried grease cookies a couple times, but accuracy went out the window, so I no longer use them.  But maybe I didn't use the right lube recipe  

I usually wipe the bore every 5 shots.  But I can often see the group starting to spread after 3 shots.  They seem to like a clean bore.

These rifles are like women, no two are alike and each likes individual attention

[Trailrider]

Howdy, Pards,
I am not an expert on the .50-95 WCF, but I can at least give you some insite as to why accuracy at close range isn't anything to write home about...  A 350 gr. .50 cal. bullet is pretty squat, i.e., short for its diameter.  It has a Relative Sectional Density (RSD), which is the bullet weight in grains/7000/the diameter squared, of about .192.  A .45 cal. bullet of the same RSD only weighs about 281 grains.  The equivalent of a 300 gr. .50 has an RSD of only .165, which equates to a 240 gr. .45 slug!

Depending on how concentric the bullet starts out in the bore (which depends on the cartridge case's concentricity, runout of the seated bullet, evenness of the crimp, etc, etc), and the twist of the rifling, at black powder velocities, it takes awhile for these short bullets to "go to sleep" (stabilize).  It would be nice if you could use longer (heavier) bullets, which is what went into the .50-70 Gov't, .50-90 Sharps, etc., but the cartridge length was prohibitively long for the '76 action.

Don't know if this helps you any, as you still have to play around with the loads, etc., but at least you know what's behind the situation.

Ride easy, Pards!

[jinglebob]

Thanks for the insight trailrider, I have heard of this before but after what you wrote, I think i have alot better understanding of it now.  90% of the fun with these old exotic calibers is taking on the challenge to make them shoot accurately.  Besides, you get to burn alot of powder while your doing it.   

[jinglebob]

Buck, Do you put your grease cookie between 2 wads in this load to keep it from sticking to the bullet base, or is one wad do the trick for you??   By the way, i thought you and old Ned Ray got hung years ago...good to see you lived through it to pass on your advice..hehe, Thanks

[Buck Stinson]

jinglebob,
When I use the grease cookie, I don't use a card wad with it.  The fact is, I don't always use grease cookies.  Sometimes I just use a dry card wad.  The original Winchester bullet has three fairly deep grooves and they seem to carry enough grease to do the job. 

Ya, I was hung in the draw just northeast of Bannack on January 10th, 1864.  Henry Plummer and Ned Ray joined me on the gallows that night.  Boy was it cold.  One of the ranchers out on the Rattlesnake, took my 1851 Colt Navy at the time of my arrest.  It ended up being passed down from generation to generation and 146 years later, they still own it.  I know where it is and someday, I'll get it back.

Adios,
Buck

[jinglebob]

If you don't use a card wad under the grease cookie will it contaminate your powder in warm weather or when stored for awhile or is that even an issue?By the way, good luck getting back your navy, that family is to be commended for hanging onto that gun for so long, not many guns with a history like that have been held onto with that much dedication.  I'd like to have it or see you get it but even more than that, i hope they never sell it as it sounds like a family heirloom by now.  But one never knows, dont let 'em sell it without you knowing about it.  Thanks again 

[Buck Stinson]

When I load with a grease cookie, I usually burn that ammo up pretty fast, so it doesn't have a chance to sit very long.  The grease will seep into the powder slightly, if the ammo is used on hot summer days.  I have never tried fiber wads, but would like to do that sometime.   I cut holster patterns from picture frame matting material and I usually have a lot of small scraps left over.  I punch my card wads from those scraps.  This material is around .045 inch thickness. 

[concho]

 Loading BP greese cookie

[concho]

I use milk cartons ,beer cases, with the wax side down against powder don't put wax side against bullet !

[reloader4410]

duro-felt products is what i use had my dad turn some cheap wad punches down to fit my drill press, makes alot of wads quick. Hope this helps.

[concho]

Where do you get Duro Felt ? sorry I never heard of it ! cutting with a drill press is a fine idea thanks , I have several punches and a  dead blow hammer , the wax on the beer and milk cartons never burns threw , I also make news paper wads to put unger bullet so the wads don't stick to the bottom of the bullet .

[reloader4410]

Google, duro felt products,go to felt material, you can buy it in several sizes, I use the 1/4 inch hard material. Hope this helps.

[reloader4410]

Sorry ment to say 1/8 inch.

[sharps50/70]

I have no experience with the 50-95 but I had trouble getting a 45-100 to shoot accurately until I switched to FG GOEX.  Try one F, it might help.
Rich