open top base pin wiggles

[delmar]

I would definately not recommend a maple wedge for any loads with heavy projectiles.

Agreed!

Is there anyone that can measure your width and make one from 4140 or better steel for you?

Part of the motive behind making the wedge out of wood it to have a template. Also I
was in kind of a hurry to get it to the place I can have fun shooting it. Since I am already to that
point and have a couple of other percussion revolvers I am not going to get in a hurry to machine
parts for this one. I'll keep my eye open at gun shows, and on the internet. Then if nothing turns
up by the time I have a little extra money, I'll order a Walker wedge and have it milled to fit.

[Montana Slim]

For a wedge that is "close" in size, I've peened them wider for a snug fit. Big hammer needed.
Otherwise, I'd probably add some weld and then grind it down.  I like modifying parts I already have on hand..and you have to ask yourself if it's worth returning it for credit when you have to pay shipping both ways (??)

Slim

[delmar]

For a wedge that is "close" in size, I've peened them wider for a snug fit. Big hammer needed.
Otherwise, I'd probably add some weld and then grind it down.  I like modifying parts I already have on hand..and you have to ask yourself if it's worth returning it for credit when you have to pay shipping both ways (??)

Slim

Great idea! I still have the old wedge though, and I like your idea. I'm going to start beating on it tonight when I get home and see if I can get it  wide enough without getting it to thin. 

[delmar]

...Otherwise, I'd probably add some weld and then grind it down... 

Slim

That is the option I went with and it worked like a charm. I took the wedge over to my buddy's
and he added metal  with a MIG welder and ground it down to fit. I still have a bit of filing to do but I
officially have a wedge that's going to work! 

[rifle]

What a gem you have been given Delmar! It'll learn ya bout the Colt Open Top and that will be knowledge well served in the future.
There are more ways to fix up an old loose Colt than Cotter had little liver pills. There are some ways that are better to use than others. Like welding yer wedge to be wider. That's a good fix but.....ifin you welded a spot of weld into the front of the arbors wedge slot you could file fit a "NEW FACTORY WEDGE" and then be able to replace at will in the future without re-welding yer wedge. You'd just send for a new factory correct wedge.
That fix with the screw on the end of the arbor that can be filed to "Bottom the arbor" in the barrels hole is a good one. I'd say it would be better to screw the screw into the arbor till it butts against the arbor and then carefully file the screws head to be a perfect bottomed arbor fit. It's difficult to file perfectly and the use of a lathe to get the end of the screw head all perpendicular to the centerline of the arbor would be nice. Not imperative but nice.
Dropping washers in(fender washers from the hardware store are best because of the thickness and the smaller hole in the middle) is a good enough fix to bottom the arbor in the barrels arbor hole. You can drop one washer in filed on the outside circumference to be a slightly tight fit in the hole so they don't drop out and they can still be pulled out with something like a dental pick if cleaning in there is needed or future adjustments are needed. I've done the "washer fix" to bottom arbors. I'd drop a washer and test at the frame/barrel junction and repeatedly stone the washer flat on a stone till the barrel fit up to the frame with a few .001's space there(doesn't hurt  thing). The space is left there so the "seating in" of the parts takes place from tapping the wedge in. A small steel hammer tapping the wedge in lightly gives off a sound that you learn is the sound of the taps the hammer makes on the wedge when the arbor is bottomed and the barrel is installed "tightly" as it should be with the arbor bottomed. The taps are hollow sounding till the arbor is getting bottomed and then the sounds of the taps get solid sounding and higher pitched. Try it you'll like it. No better sound than the little hammer tapping a wedge on a bottomed arbored gun and making those high pitched solid sounds to the taps. Just light taps though.
Anywhooo....you could have yer Buddy mig weld the washers to the end of yer arbor once they are sized to fit well. Patience is the key to botoming an arbor.
Of course there is a simple way to fix er that ends up as good as a bottomed arbor if not better. That's to fit the arbor in the barrels hole with "no space" when the arbor's in the hole. Like a kinda twist and push on fit. No space in the barrels arbor hole when the arbor is in it is actually the best fit. You can still get the barrel off easily by using the loading lever plunger against the space between the chambers  of the cylinder as a push point to put the plunger against to lever the barrel off.
Fit the arbor to the barrels hole with no space? Easy. Just have yer Buddy weld a small spot near the end of the arbor on the top of the arbor and another spot near where the barrels hole starts,on top the arbor...just about where it would be just inside the beginning of the barrels hole. If you take the time to file and polish the "bumps of weld" to be a tight enough fit into the barrels hole where you kinda twist the barrel some to get it on the fit will be "the best" and better than a bottomed arbor. If you do bottom the arbor first then put the "bumps of weld" on the top of the arbor you will have the proverbial "prime fit" to yer barrel on the arbor. It makes a difference in whether the gun shoots "prime" too. Tight barrel usually always means a decent shooter. Even a brass framer can be a tack driver. Makes shootin fun. Anywhooo...the weld "bumps" a top the arbor makes for a real nice fit even without the bottomed arbor. (the bumps get filed and polished so they are barely visible)Yer choice.."bumps on top the arbor" or "bottomed arbor" or "both" fer prime fit.
One side note...ifin you have a gun with a fairly loose fit to the arbor in the barrels hole and.....the gun shoots left or right or high or low you can....
Adjust the point of aim by placing bumps on the arbor where the arbor goes in the barrels hole within the tolerances of the "loose in the hole" arbor will let the barrel move a bit on the arbor. Standard fit to give the tight fit like an easy bottomed arbor would be to put the bumps on the top of the arbor. That's not paying any attention to point of aim except probably just get the barrel pointed straight down the centerline of the arbor if the arbor hole is parallel to the bore. Just a thought as a side note about adjusting point of aim with bumps of weld on the arbor to move the barrel a little. A little goes a long way. The bumps ,naturally, are placed to move the barrel the right way to correct,or help correct, the point of aim/point of impact of the shots fired.
Starting at the right place to fix the gun would be to first tighten the arbor in the frame where it screws in. Usually ,unless the gun was shot when it was loose a lot, the original lock  pin is just getting loose. Tightening it isn't too difficult. You need a flat faced punch with straight sides,not tapered, the size that will actually fit "in" the hole where the lock pin is seated. You may have to grind a tapered punch to be a good fit and be flat faced.
Take the gun apart and use just the frame with the arbor in it. Put the end of the arbor on a flat solid steel surface. Solid steel. Use the punch to smack the lock pin pretty hard. The object is to "bump up" the diameter of the lock pin so it is tight in the hole. Putting the end of the arbor flat on a solid steel surface will help insure the shoulder of the arbor where the threads end is tight against the frame. That's important. The shoulder of the arbor has to be tight against the frame. One way to insure the arbor doesn't go crooked when the lock pin is tightened  is to do as was mentioned above but put the barrel on the frame periodically to make sure it is going to fit and the arbor hasn't gone crooked.
Put the barrel on the gun...pad the steel surface with thin cardboard or leather and with the barrel muzzle flat faced against the padded  steel surface strike the punch and "bump up" the lock pin. The pin being tightened can't move the arbor crooked much if the barrel is on the frame. Don't put the wedge in to hold the barel since that pulls the arbors shoulder away from the frame. The object is to bump up the lock pin to tighten the arbor and drive the frame down at the same time against the arbors shoulder for a good fit. Easy.
On a steel framed revolver if the lock pin isn't enough to tighten the arbor into the frame I've used weld in the lock pin hole after the lock pin was drilled out. You know...when the arbors hole in the frame has been deformed from a lot of shooting after the arbor became loose. That deforms the hole and the threads. If there's some thread left to tighten the arbor and the arbor needs some help to stay tight then welding in the lock pin hole works real well. Actually if you lay a file on it's side and file a groove across the arbors back end where the groove goes into the frame also and then have that groove welded over and filed smooth that guns arbor will never loosen up again.    The brass framer can have brass braised in the same fashion as the welding was done to a steel framed gun. The brass framer just needing brass braised instead of welding. When the end of the arbor is welded in any fashion "the barrel has to be on the gun" but....the wedge has to be barely put in the slot so to "not pull the arbors shoulder away from the frame". The arbors shoulder needs to be against the frame. Side note....drilling and tapping the lock pin hole and putting an allen head screw in the lock pin hole and cinchin it up tight pulls the arbors shoulder into the frame and holds it there and tightens the arbor pretty well. Gunsmiths like to do that allen head screw fix fer the lock pin since they know how nice it is to get a gun to fix that has that allen head screw feature to it.
One note  I'd like to make is...when filing the end of an arbor to bottom it or spacing washers in the bottom of the arbor hole in the barrel or however you bottom the arbor in the hole there's a trick to get the arbors end flat against the bottom of the hole. Use Prussian Blue from Brownells or some form of "color" on the end of the arbor. That can tell you if there's a high spot to file down. You can see where the end of the arbor hits the bottom of the barrels hole. It's like you file the high off where the color shows it untill you start getting blue or color around the whole circle on the end of the arbor. Like inletting parts into wood. You find the high spots with inletting "color" and file the color  till you start getting color to the hole circle around the end of the arbor. Then at a point the color can be seen to squish away from the areas where the parts mate and sort of crush fit against one another. The crush fit spots show "no color" because the color is moved out of those spots by the parts fittin real tight there. That's what you want to see on the end of the arbor. A "no color" ring around the end. Sometimes just on the outter edge around the end of the arbor and sometimes a widder ring of "no color" depending on the shape of the bottom of the barrels arbor hole. The hole need not be perfectly flat and some are concave shaped at the bottomof the hole but that's alright unless you're a real perfectionist and want to bottom the hole with an end cutting end mill on a milling machine. It's alright even if just the edge of the arbors end contacts the end of the hole.
One thing to watch for if you're looking at the end of the arbor and using color to see if the whole circumference of the arbors end is contacting the bottom of the hole in the barrel should be mentioned.
When the wedge draws the barrel on with the tremendous force wedges can generate something happens when there's even the tiniest amount of space in the barrels arbor hole when the arbor is in it(most all the time this is true...there's space in that hole with the arbor in it). The wedge can draw the barrel back with all that force and get the barrel to cant back and slightly downwards at the beginning of the barrels arbor hole. The wedge will get the force put on the upper part of the end of the arbor and get the barrel to cant backwards and down at the beginning of the arbor hole in the barrel. That makes a perfect mating to the end of the arbor and the bottom of the barrels arbor hole imperfect with the upper end of the arbor making the contact at the bottom of the hole and the lower part of the end of the arbor not making contact or making lighter contact.
The barrel tries to cant back and downward even with a bottomed arbor if there's any space at all to the fit of the arbor in the barrels hole. If the space is small like on the Pietta Colts the movement of the barrel canting is negligible but still there. If the space is large or small the barrel still cants backwards and down some and messes up a perfect fit to the arbor at the bottom of the barrels arbor hole. If the mate or contact to the end of the arbor and the bottom of the hole  is at least 1/2 to 2/3rds contact on the upper part of the end of the arbor against the bottom of the hole it's still a good fit......and the way most all the guns with a bottomed arbors and a less than perfect fit to the arbor in the barrels arbor hole actually are when the wedge is tight. Even your guns bottomed arbor since there's probably space in the barrels arbor hole whenthe arbor is in it.
There's a way to offset that mechanical anomaly concerning the fit and forces emmitted to the arbors end and the bottom of the arbors hole in the barrel and the space at the beginning of the barrels arbor hole that lets the barrel cant a small amount even with a bottomed arbor. Don't dispair.
A simple spot of weld on the top side of the arbor positioned right inside the beginning of the barrels hole and file fitted to make a "no space" there is the simple solution. The bump is filed and polished and is hardly visible but...it does a lot towards keeping the barrel from canting and making the shots go higher than they need to and making the end fit of the arbor to the bottom of the barrels hole stay flush contact around the full circumference at the end of the arbor...as most imagine it is and stays. Actually it only does that when there's no space to the barrels hole when the arbor's in it.  That image of a perfect contact full circumference mate fit at the end of the arbor and the bottom of the hole is false though if there's any space at the beginning of the barrels arbor hole at the top side of the hole. Most of the time it is imagined the arbor just goes to the bottom of the hole and meets it full contact and stays that way when the wedge is inserted. Actually that space at the top entry of the barrels hole and the arbor space will close up and the barrel moves a small amount even with a bottomed arbor when the wedge emmits all that force. That space will close until it's got the barrels entry to the hole in contact with the arbors top side.  Anywhooo..that little "bump" welded to the arbor to close the hole at the top at the beginning of the barrels arbor hole does plenty to insure the end of the arbor stays flush contacted to the bottom of the barrels hole. A "race Colt" would have a lathe turned arbor fit that the barrel has to be twisted and pushed a little to get on it since it would be a near perfect fit just loose enough to get the barrel on. That is an arbor with as little space as possible to the fit of the arbor in the barrels hole.
A "close second method" and a much easier way is to spot and fit a coupla welds at or near the "top end of the arbor" and at the place where the bump will be at the "begining of the arbors hole in the barrel at the top side of the hole". Then you know...the end of the arbor stays flat flush contacted at the bottom of it's hole. Side note...you'd hope the cylinder was loose enough on the arbor to still go on the arbor when the "bumps" of weld are there. Usually the cylinder will go on. Most of the time the end of the arbor where the barrel goes is a little smaller than the part of the arbor where the cylinder rides. You'd be wise to check that feature so you wouldn't be cussin me when the bumps tighten the barrel to the arbor but..the cylinder can't go on if you have an arbor the same diameter all the way to the end. ha ha ha  Evidence of the barrel canting even with a bottomed arbor can be seen at times when there's an impression imprinted to the end of the arbor from the force of the wedge and anything that can imprint at the bottom of the barrels hole. Drill lines,the edge of the hole that's at the bottom  of the hole when some of the bottom is concave ect.ect.ect. or any irregularity at the bottom of the barrels hole. Side note.......I've used a simple shim made of copper or brass that's inserted in the arbor hole with the barrel where as the shim is on top the arbor where the space usually is instead of using a little "bump" of weld. The shims work real well to tighten the barrel to the arbor and they can be simply cut with scissors to fit. Left a little wide and tight they can be form fitted(since they are soft metal like copper) by tapping the barrel on with the shim in there with a rubber hammer. The shims go over the top of the wedge slots and are relatively thin laying atop the arbor when the barrel is inserted on the arbor. A screw driver can be uased to keep the shim from moving backwards whenthe barrel is inserted on the arbor. Of course the shim has to be the right thickness to go in the space at the top of the barrels arbor hole. Piettas take a real thin shim and Uberti's can take shims made of beer can metal at times the space is so large. Just don't try to get a shim in there with the barrel when the shim is too thick. The approx. proper thickness and the shim cut narrower if it seems too tight and wider if the shim seems too loose. You just cut the shims a little wide and try them and if need be cut them more narrow till they go in but go in tight. After awhile(many many shots fired) thge soft metal shim is repalced since it gets beat from the force and flattened. It's easy to insert the shims once you get the hang of it. The shims keep you from having to weld any bumps to the top of the arbor. A barrel tight on the arbor always is more consistantly accurate. If the chambers are the right size on your gun for the rifling grooves in the barrel and the arbor fit is right and bottomed and the barrel tight your COLT can keep right up with your REMINGTON target shooting. Naturally you'd do things to get the Colt to shoot to point of aim as you probably did with your Remington or any cap&baller you have. Naturally you'd use lube pills or wool wads saturated with some lube right down atop your powder charge under your balls to keep the barrel clean enough to keep accuracy consistant. Naturally you'd make a lube that was wax/lube in the right proportion to be compatable with the load chain with the lube pill or wool wad on top the powder under the balls.  Two thirds wax and one third lube is a good combo. Lube/wax stiffer than what you'd use in conical bullets. I always say the lube pills have to be soft enough to squish between yer fingers but stiff enough to handle. That stiffer than conical bullet lube for blackpowder lube makes it possible to put it right on the powder under the balls where it canactually do whatit's there to do....... keep the barrel and chambers free of blackpowder fouling and keep the hjole in the center of the cylinder protected from fouling going in. Better to have lube/wax go in and block that space each shot in front of the blackpowder fouling. Better to have the lube/wax go down the barrel in front of the fouling.
Anywhoo.....you can use all kinds of tricks to "Kitchen Table Gunsmith" one of those old loosened up, shot out ,dirt rollin messed up, abused and tortured  old Colts.
One trick I use and promote for a brass framer or old beat to death steel framer ,new or old brass framer, is to use a "narrow rimmed bushing" from the hardware store or auto supply store usually sized at 7/8ths X 1 3/8ths 14 gauge to repair or protect the ring on the frames recoil shield that keeps the caps off the frame so they don't chain fire against the frame. The ring gets smashed in on six spots when the cylinder recoils into it each shot after awhile especially onthe brass framers. The caps can then get to the frame of a beater Colt and chainfire. Making a little thin steel backplate and soldering it(brass framer or steel framer) to the frame around the recoil shields ring makes for a good lasting fix especially to a brass framer Colt. Naturally you fit the bushing around the recoil shields ring and cut it away where need be to fit and to be compatable. You know..you don't want it across the hammers recess slot in the frame so the hammer hits it or cover up the loading port side where you put on yer caps. Anyway.....with the bushing in place ,and becoming a little steel backplate, the nipples need cones shortened and the safety pins filed away. Load only five and keep the hammer on the empty chamber. The bushing just makes a wide little steel backplate to help the poor little brass or deformed steel ring on the recoil shield of an old Colt. It'll help any brass framer last as long as you do ifin you just fire standard loads in the gun(not neccesarily light loads either). The steel back plate will enable the gun to withstand heavy charges and even withstand hot 777 loads but...not forever and why get caried away. Standard loads like 25gr. FFFg for a 44 ball and 22gr. FFFg for a 36cal. ball are plenty of "whomp" fer a cap&baller and...the thin steel backplate around the recoil shields ring will make the gun last. Remember to shorten the cones on the nips with a stone or you'll get chain fires.

One of the most satisfying feelings is to pick up and pull the hammer on an old beater Colt gun you tuned up and tightened up especially if you have er shootin point of aim/point of impact. That will be one of the "favorites" in yer collection of cap&ballers.
See yas pards!

[Fox Creek Kid]

Wayne, I just read your entire post. When do I get my diploma? 

[delmar]

rifle
Thanks for all the info. I had already figured out the washer trick. I loaded the Colt a couple of times this morning,
with lead this time. The only problem I had was that the pin came out of the loading lever latch on the 3rd shot.

[rifle]

Thanks for the thanks Delmar. yer welcome.
Fox Creek Kid....I see you still have that sense of humor. Yer alright Buddy.
You read that whole thing? You read?  I thought you just knew how to shoot?
Anywhoooo...you already grauninated from "Kitchen Table Gunsmithing 101".  You need two diplomas? You can buy bathroom tissue easier and that's softer. hahaha

[rifle]

Delmar....what does the frame look like right behind the cylinder?  The ring bumpy?

[delmar]

Delmar....what does the frame look like right behind the cylinder?  The ring bumpy?

Aside from the 6 semi circular rises that are obviously part of the design, it is smooth. Doesn't look hammered at all.

Also I am sort of pleasantly surprised how snug the arbor fits into the barrel. I really don't think I could get much of a shim in there. Though a small bump might work but it would need to be small. This project has been a lot of fun so far, and I think I'm going to learn way more, a lot quicker because I got this old clunker than I would have by buying brand new pistols.

[Li'll Red]

Lots of stuff up there, and down here. First, of course, the arbour should NEVER wiggle or move at all. Think about it, if you are using the barrel and wedge to tighten a sloppy arbor, then when you fire, you are having your barrel held by a taunt but still loose arbour. No, fix that correctly via a new arbour. I had a similar problem with a 51 I picked up and it was not difficult to drill out the pin holding it to replace it with a new one
.
Second, glavanic corrosion can be an issue with CERTAIN disimilar material. Brass and non galvanized Steel is NOT one of those combinations. The differrence in the anodic index between these two is about .05. For corrosion to be  an issue the difference needs to be about .25 or more, such as seen between aluminum and steel or brass and galvanized steel.

Make sure ANY welding done to the wedge is re-hardened. If not the now newly larger and better fitting wedge will fit better only until the now softer metal gets battered via firing. My first attempt at this ended up with a cylinder or two of tighter fitting then having the battered wedge go flying out all on its own. The next time I re hardened it before use. Not that hard, but you have to remove that little spring first. Just heat cherry red with say a propane torch, then dip right away in some used motor oil. After it cools, set fire to the oil the wedge and let it burn away without help from the torch, this will put a less brittle surface hardening on it. It is more brittle if you do not,

Same for the arbor, welding to it will also soften the metal. Better way,  find a nice grade 8 metal screw with a head larger around then the arbor, and with more depth than you need to take up. Have the arbor drilled and tapped for this screw then screw it in . Next you can slowly, to prevent heat build up, grind it down to the arbor diameter and after that, work on taking a "little off the top" bit by bit until it fits. Test not by putting the barrel back on as you would to get it ready to shoot, but by putting the barrel on with the frame pins off to the side. This will allow you to twist/turn the barrel on the arbor to meet the side of the frame. When you have too much material, the barrel will be proud of the frame near the pins. When you have it just right, the barrel will just slide right over to the side of the pin and be flush with the frame. If you got past this point and the barrel hits the side of the frame instead of resting near the side of the barrel pin, you went to far and will need to start over.

[delmar]

Make sure ANY welding done to the wedge is re-hardened. If not the now newly larger and better fitting wedge will fit better only until the now softer metal gets battered via firing. My first attempt at this ended up with a cylinder or two of tighter fitting then having the battered wedge go flying out all on its own. The next time I re hardened it before use. Not that hard, but you have to remove that little spring first. Just heat cherry red with say a propane torch, then dip right away in some used motor oil. After it cools, set fire to the oil the wedge and let it burn away without help from the torch, this will put a less brittle surface hardening on it. It is more brittle if you do not,

Does the spring just pull out?

[Montana Slim]

The spring should have a pin projecting into the wedge, visible from the bottom side.
Remove with a pin-punch and hammer 

The wedge material is likely not an alloy steel or such which would easily harden by heating to cherry red, hold there for a couple minutes, then plunge into oil or water quench. If I were planning to harden mine, I'd just use kasenit.

On my pistols, I've noticed the slot in the barrel peens wider, rather than the wedges. My method of re-working wedges cold-works the material and makes it harder.

Regards,
Slim

[rifle]

I've never had a problem with an old beater that was beyond it's credibiity that was reworked and needed welding. I've done old Dragoons and others that were so battered by shooting when it was all loosened up and "gunsmithed" by monkey men it was hilarious. Like wood screws jammed into the back of the arbor where the end shows. Beaten and peened and drilled and poked and evey manner of weird things. Those needed welding to make them sound. The mig welder and the type wire used makes a difference. The shop I get the welding done for me uses a hard steel for the welding. It's difficult to file for sure. It holds them old guns and I've never had one come back with a loosened arbor. The one gun I did that was among the worst I've ever done was a really cool old Dragoon from Replica Arms of Marietta,Ohio. I picked it up for $24 and felt I was robbed. I just had to give it a try. It had enough good left to get it togerther with some welding in more than one place and make new grips and just about evey thing you could imagine needed attention.
I restored the gun with new Belgian Bluing and grips and reamed chambers and sighted to point of aim and all fit well and sound as a granite stone. It shot real nice too. Well...after it was done anyone that saw it at the house or in the shop exclaimed within seconds of seeing it,"I'll buy it.What do you want? I'll pay you ?".  The curly maple grips really caught the eye. I did sell it begrudgedly to a guy that was kinda poor but really loved that gun. I sold it kinda cheap. I'm a sap for the under dog.
Anyway.... it was welded and many others I've done were welded and they stay together. The steel that the cap&ballers is made of is really mild steel. I don't think it gets much softer after welding heat gets to parts of it than when it's new.Just like case hardening the frames and quenching them in cold water doesn't make them brittle so they need tempering the opposite is true and the welding heat doesn't seem  to affect them much either. Probably does some I'd suppose but I haven't ever had trouble welding the backs of the arbors to steel frames or braising the brass framers. The welding saves some old cool cap&ballers from the scrap pile.
Anyway I don't know the composition of the wire the welding shop I go to uses for the mig welder but I could find out if anyone wanted to know.
One thing I've found with wedges is a new wide wedge is a bitch to get fit right. All I can say is they like to act like they are over tight and then when they get in like to  go all the way in and be tight but...all the way in...not flush with the off side. It's a struggle to get those wedge shaped pieces of steel fit proper so they stay proper. You have to sorta get them in when they seem too tight so you're actually "seating in" the wedge to the arbors front of the slot face and the barrels rear slot faces. I like to make my own wedges that are longer to begin with so they go in easier.(copy the taper of the original wedge the gun came with but make the wedge a little wide compared to the original) Then have extra length to tap in kinda hard to actually seat the part in so that's done before firing and not during firing. That way you cut the extra off the side that goes in first after you know the wedge is seated and fits real well with a lot of contact between the front of the wedge and the arbors front slot face and the rear of the wedge on the barrels slot faces. I've slanted the arbors front arbor slot face so the rear barrel slots can be both perpendicular to the center line of the gun and the arbors front slot face is slanted to be a flush fit to the wedges front face. You know how the front of the wedge is at an angle to the centerline of the gun?
You have to look at what you've got there. Are the barrels rear slot faces both perpendicular to the centerline of the gun or are they at an angle if you put a straight edge in contact with both slot faces? Then would the face of the arbors front slot be flush with the edge of the wedge with the taper it has?  Some wedges in some manufacturers guns are flush to both rear barrel slot faces and not flush with the front of the arbor slot. Some are flush to the front of the arbors front slot face.  You know..what do you want? All the faces to be flush with the edges of the wedge fore and aft or not?  I at least want the barrels rear slot faces to be perpendicular to the centerline of the gun and they aren't always like that out of the box. Then I often like to see at the front of the wedge that there is full contact between the front edge of the wedge and the front arbor slot face. Like you look at one side and see a good full contact between the arbor slot and the edge of the wedge and then check the other side and see there is full contact there too. It's nice to be able to see that fit on each side of the gun and not have to use a color like Prussian Blue machinists ink as when you check for full contact of the arbor front face to the bottom of the barrels arbor hole.
Some,like most, cap&ballers have the arbors front slot face perpendicular to the centerline of the gun and the wedge is not in full contact with that face. The rear wedge edge would be perpendicular to the centerline because the rear barrel slots are perpendicular to the centerline also. That makes for a wedge that will "seat in" early and end up pushed all the way in real soon and get loose sooner too.
Anywhoooo...it ain't really all that easy to jam a wedge in and get it to fit right especially if the gun came from the factory "not right". It makes a lot of sense to make your own "new wedges' and fit them right. Making them longer and with the spring out(to be inserted later) so the end that goes thru that ends up too long and not flush on the off side can be cut or filed to be flush.......actually a tiny bit in further than flush so the springs head won't be hit with whatever someone hits the wedge with to get it out..... but the end of the wedge is hit instead of the springs head.
If you have a gun that the wedge seems to pop loose too often,or pops loose at all,  the faces of the slots that contact the wedge are not making a good contact with the edges fore and aft on the wedge and.....maybe a new welded wedge didn't follow the taper of the original wedge close enough. That's why if a new wedge isn't made and factory wedges are wanted in the future,like most of us like,and the wedges seem too loose to begin with the front slot face of the arbor needs welded and the face slanted properly and the new factory wedge file fitted.
I'd like to know....the faces on the barrels slots at the rear and the arbors front slot face...are they both perpendicular to the centerline of the gun on the originals or are they made to be flush with the faces of the wedges front and rear edge?
ATTENTION DELMAR.....the 6 semi circular rises in the recoil shields ring you see.....there must be 6 indentations made by the back of the cylinder recoiling into the ring of the recoil shield. If they aren't indented too deep yer alright. You'd just have two cylinder gap sizes. One that's smaller when the cylinder is between chambers and one wide one when the cylinder is lined up in battery with a chamber ready to fire.  That is the kinda thing that little steel backplate I mentioned somewhere,I think it was here on this forum, is there to avoid or after it's there to fix the problem. Sometimes the "rises" you mentioned can be filed down to be even with the indented low spots to get a consistant clyinder gap and have a smooth area for the cylinder to head space on. Hopefully if you were to file the "rises" to be even with the low spots the nipples cones won't recoil into the recoil shield and chainfire all chambers at once. Your gun could be in that state of illness right now. You should check it before you fire standard loads in it. Check to make sure the recoils ring isn't indented far enough for the caps to hit the recoil shield when you push the cylinder all the way backwards. That ring back there shouldn't have any "rises". If that ring is indented too far you'll have to make the little steel backplate to get the cylinder further forward so it's safe from chainfire. If you file the rings rises then you may have to set the barrel back to get a decent cyliner gap and then...the nipples wil be too close to the recoil shield and you'll have to stone the nipples cones to be shorter. Fit for whatever caps you like. Hopefully the indentations aren't too deep and you may leave the gun as is and get some more use out of it that way. You'd have to watch the caps getting closer and closer to the recoil shield and close to chain firing all six at once. That may be a little exhilerating!

[delmar]

Holy cow! your seriously telling me that those bumps are not part of the design of the gun?

[rifle]

Delmar, that's exactly right. Not part of the design unless you figure brass frame designs can get that defect. The ring isn't supposed to be dented anywhere.  Looks like a bad case since I can see good in that well managed photo. Good camera. What kind is it?
Don't dispair Buddy. The revolver "can be fixed". We have the technology. We can rebuild it.  Remember the show the million dollar man? 
That narrow rimmed bushing I told about up there somewhere(I think) will fix er up if you want to do a little "Kitchen Table Gunsmithin".
Size 7/8ths X 1-3/8ths 14 gauge narrow rimmed bushing. They are kinda like big washers that are thin with a big hole in the middle for shimming up axles or shafts or whatever in machines and tractors and the like. I found them at a hardware store years ago looking for a "thing" to fix an old brass framer. That's what got me into fixin cap&ballers. A brass framer..first cap&baller I ever got. Soft brass ASM 1851 navy Colt. The next two I got were steel frames but softer than brass I think and every time I shot the dang things they broke. Don't kow what brand they were but they were $50-$60 back then a piece. Springs like pretzles. steel like clay. They looked good though. maybe they were for looks more than anything. Springs were like 50 cents a piece so I'd order 10-15 at a time. I gave up on them and threw them in the woods. The 1860 Army on it's last shot I was left standing there with the frame in my hand and the barrel and cylinder were on the ground in front of me. My brother saw it and laughed till he wet himself. I just chucked the dang thing out into the woods. my brother went and found the pieces and took it to the welder shop and stuck it together and traded it in on an old single barreled LeFever shotgun. Cool shotgun. He still has it 30 years later.Killed so many squirrels with that gun I considered him a professional Squirrel Hunter.   
Anyway...at a gun show my brother asked a guy for me,since I wanted to know if there were any good cap&ballers out there, if there were any good cap&ballers. He found out about this obscure company Named Albirdie. Albirdie I asked? Well I finally found out it was Uberti and found my firsdt Dixie gunsworks catalog and in no time I had two Uberti cap&ballers and I never looked back. The Ubertis weren't free of defects though. They both shot so far to the right I couldn't believe it. I ended up learning oin them too and got them shootin well enough to squirrel hunt with them. Rabitts too. Even got a coupla pheasants on those really rare occaisions.
Anywhooo....get a narrow rimmed bushing the size I said above. Only about 2/3rds of it will be left after you file fit it around the ring on the recoil shield. Hammer has to get to the nips and the loading port to get caps on needs to be open. Just fit it around the ring and file or cut it where need be and then when you cansee it fits just solder it on. Lil steel backplate and no more huge cylinder gap and all that. Shoten the nips so the caps don't drag and won't recoil into the frame and chainfire. Your gun ooks like it might just be a chainfire machine right now. When you fit the backplate you need to file the peened over brass where it makes the circumference of the diameter of the ring squished out. True up the rings diameter. File the bushing to fit nice around it. It takes a lil filing. The best thing is..the thickness of the bushing should be exactly the thickness or height of the ring on the recoil shield. That means that part is done and there's no milling or stoning the bushing to be the right thickness.
The safety pegs need filed off too so you'll have to carry with only "five" loaded for safety with the hammer on the empty.
No biggie. You can do it easy enough. The steel backplate put in there will most likely make for a job where the barrel needs not be set back to adjust the cylinder gap. Hopefully.
Once the "arbor is made "not lose" and the lil "steel backplate" is soldered on you can fire standard loads and not worry about shootin pipsqueek loads. The gun could last you a life time maybe after that lil bit of fixin.
I have a pic of a brass frame with the lil steel backplate on it but....I don't know how to put pics on this forum. I can over at the voy forum for blackpowder revolvers. If you want I could and you could go there and take a look
see. Let me know.
I have a ASM 1851 36cal. Naqvy Colt with the brass frame. I guess it's more of a Griswold &Gunnison or that other Southern manufacturer. Forgot the name. Leech&Rigdon?
Anyway.....I didn't shoot it till I put the steel backplate on to bolster the brass ring. Shortened the nips. Filed the safety pins off They drag on the recoil shield. I've had that gun fer years and years. 20 years maybe?  Thousands of balls shot from it. Killed squirrels and rabitts and all that and just have shot the ever livin crap out of it and it's still tight and strong ect.ect. If you don't let a brass framer Colt get loose and then shoot it while it's loose the arbor stays in real good. It's the loose of the cylinder getting a big cylinder gap so it can get a running start and really bang the frame that seems to loosen the arbors in their threads. Ill fit wedges that get loose are a real culprite to loosening the arbors too. Just in general if you keep a brass framer tight it'll last I think. No loose wedges for a brass framer. Protecting that ring on the recoil shield is the biggie when the brass is too soft. There's two kinds. Red brass and yellow brass and the yellow is the softer of the two. Some brass framers don't break down under normal use with standard loads. People say the Pietta brass framers don't get the recoil shields ring smashed down so they last. That's what I hear anyway.

[Montana Slim]

Obviously this piece has a lot of issues... but it will provide low-risk opportunities for creative repairwork and education.

Good luck,
Hotgun

[delmar]

Delmar, that's exactly right. Not part of the design unless you figure brass frame designs can get that defect. The ring isn't supposed to be dented anywhere.  Looks like a bad case since I can see good in that well managed photo. Good camera. What kind is it?

I took that with my LG Envy cell phone. Not the best camera available, but I do know a thing or two about lighting

Don't dispair Buddy. The revolver "can be fixed". We have the technology. We can rebuild it.  Remember the show the million dollar man?   

I do remember. I do have to admit that part of me wants to call it quits right now, and another part of me is a bit excited  about rising to the challenge.

That narrow rimmed bushing I told about up there somewhere(I think) will fix er up if you want to do a little "Kitchen Table Gunsmithin".
Size 7/8ths X 1-3/8ths 14 gauge narrow rimmed bushing. They are kinda like big washers that are thin with a big hole in the middle for shimming up axles or shafts or whatever in machines and tractors and the like. I found them at a hardware store years ago looking for a "thing" to fix an old brass framer. That's what got me into fixin cap&ballers. A brass framer..first cap&baller I ever got. Soft brass ASM 1851 navy Colt. The next two I got were steel frames but softer than brass I think and every time I shot the dang things they broke. Don't kow what brand they were but they were $50-$60 back then a piece. Springs like pretzles. steel like clay. They looked good though. maybe they were for looks more than anything. Springs were like 50 cents a piece so I'd order 10-15 at a time. I gave up on them and threw them in the woods. The 1860 Army on it's last shot I was left standing there with the frame in my hand and the barrel and cylinder were on the ground in front of me. My brother saw it and laughed till he wet himself. I just chucked the dang thing out into the woods. my brother went and found the pieces and took it to the welder shop and stuck it together and traded it in on an old single barreled LeFever shotgun. Cool shotgun. He still has it 30 years later.Killed so many squirrels with that gun I considered him a professional Squirrel Hunter.   
Anyway...at a gun show my brother asked a guy for me,since I wanted to know if there were any good cap&ballers out there, if there were any good cap&ballers. He found out about this obscure company Named Albirdie. Albirdie I asked? Well I finally found out it was Uberti and found my firsdt Dixie gunsworks catalog and in no time I had two Uberti cap&ballers and I never looked back. The Ubertis weren't free of defects though. They both shot so far to the right I couldn't believe it. I ended up learning oin them too and got them shootin well enough to squirrel hunt with them. Rabitts too. Even got a coupla pheasants on those really rare occaisions.
Anywhooo....get a narrow rimmed bushing the size I said above. Only about 2/3rds of it will be left after you file fit it around the ring on the recoil shield. Hammer has to get to the nips and the loading port to get caps on needs to be open. Just fit it around the ring and file or cut it where need be and then when you can see it fits just solder it on. Lil steel backplate and no more huge cylinder gap and all that. Shoten the nips so the caps don't drag and won't recoil into the frame and chainfire. Your gun ooks like it might just be a chainfire machine right now.

I don't know. So far I have fired it eight times with .451 round balls and 17 grains of FFFG Pyrodex. It seemed to function real well, but I don't know too much about accuracy. I haven't made it too the range yet so I was just sort of firing into the ground in my back yard. Good thing I'm not in the city! Do you think there is a chance I won't have to do all that if I get the wiggle worked out, and stick to light loads? The truth is that if I get this pistol working well enough to be my backup CAS pistol I will be ecstatic! It really has never been my intention to shoot "full loads with it. I have have two steel fame 1858s that will do fine for that!

When you fit the backplate you need to file the peened over brass where it makes the circumference of the diameter of the ring squished out. True up the rings diameter. File the bushing to fit nice around it. It takes a lil filing. The best thing is..the thickness of the bushing should be exactly the thickness or height of the ring on the recoil shield. That means that part is done and there's no milling or stoning the bushing to be the right thickness.
The safety pegs need filed off too so you'll have to carry with only "five" loaded for safety with the hammer on the empty.
No biggie. You can do it easy enough. The steel backplate put in there will most likely make for a job where the barrel needs not be set back to adjust the cylinder gap. Hopefully.
Once the "arbor is made "not lose" and the lil "steel backplate" is soldered on you can fire standard loads and not worry about shootin pipsqueek loads. The gun could last you a life time maybe after that lil bit of fixin.
I have a pic of a brass frame with the lil steel backplate on it but....I don't know how to put pics on this forum.

If you already have the photos up on another forum it is pretty easy. Just right click on the photo, in the other forum then click on "copy image location". Then on the post you are making on this forum look for a row of icons right above the little cowboy smilies. The one you are looking for looks like a painting in a picture frame and is just to the left of the one that looks like the Earth. If you hover your mouse over it it will say "insert image". Just click on insert image and paste (control V) the image location into the post.

I can over at the voy forum for blackpowder revolvers. If you want I could and you could go there and take a look
see. Let me know.
I have a ASM 1851 36cal. Naqvy Colt with the brass frame. I guess it's more of a Griswold &Gunnison or that other Southern manufacturer. Forgot the name. Leech&Rigdon?
Anyway.....I didn't shoot it till I put the steel backplate on to bolster the brass ring. Shortened the nips.

I'm a little confused why I need to shorten the nipples if I add the steel backplate. Doesn't adding the backplate return the spacing to normal? Also I am not exactly sure what the safety pins are and why they need to be filed?

Filed the safety pins off They drag on the recoil shield. I've had that gun fer years and years. 20 years maybe?  Thousands of balls shot from it. Killed squirrels and rabitts and all that and just have shot the ever livin crap out of it and it's still tight and strong ect.ect. If you don't let a brass framer Colt get loose and then shoot it while it's loose the arbor stays in real good. It's the loose of the cylinder getting a big cylinder gap so it can get a running start and really bang the frame that seems to loosen the arbors in their threads. Ill fit wedges that get loose are a real culprite to loosening the arbors too. Just in general if you keep a brass framer tight it'll last I think. No loose wedges for a brass framer. Protecting that ring on the recoil shield is the biggie when the brass is too soft. There's two kinds. Red brass and yellow brass and the yellow is the softer of the two. Some brass framers don't break down under normal use with standard loads. People say the Pietta brass framers don't get the recoil shields ring smashed down so they last. That's what I hear anyway.

[rifle]

Delmar,the nips need shortened since they would drag on the new lil backplate. The safety pins,if you have any on that gun,drag too.
All in all if you can see how close the capped nips are to the recoil shield and tell they won't recoil back and hit it and chainfire I guess you could shoot the gun.
I have that pic in a file. I'm not a puter guy. How do I get it on edit -copy to get it here and edit-paste it?

[Li'll Red]

I have a pair of 20+ year old brass framed 51's that don't show that kind of battering. I suspect it is because the fore and aft movement of the cylinder on the arbor of each of mine is minimal. If there is too much end space, the cylinder can get slammed into that bushing causing the problem shown. If the cylinder is supported by the bushing, already against it, the rearward pressure will be absorbsed by your hand with the bushing doing nothing more than to help pass it on that way. Brass or steel framed, it makes no difference, a correctly fitted arbor and wedge will go along way into reducing the cylinder gap unless there are other issues involved (such as someone filing away the end of a cylinder a little, and yes, I have one of those sitting around, so someone saw the need to do it!). As most do not know how to do this, they come up with "fixes" to get around the problem. Not to say those fixes won't do the trick, adding material to that bushing can reduce that gap and "fix" the problem, but I would rather tackle it via the arbor. There are a number of intro to BP gunsmithing books out there that will give you the rundown on how to do this, and it is far better than trial and error, althouth trial and error is a better learning process (after ruining a few expensive parts, one will learn not to do it that way again!).