Where's The Cylinders?

[Shotgun Franklin]

I've heard, as I'm sure we all have, that it was very common for an Old West C&B shooter to have extra cylinders so they could be put into the gun as needed during a gunfight or other emergency. I don't see many extra cylinders, from the Old West, anywhere. What happened to'm? Or was it maybe not as common as we've been led to believe?

[St. George]

Nope - not nearly as common as the movies and novels would have one believe.

You just can't trust the 'John Ford Reference Library' if you're looking for authenticity - you actually have to read well-referenced books.

The average guy carrying a cap and ball revolver wasn't wandering the West armed to the teeth like Missouri border trash - ready to take on all comers.

His revolver was a tool - nothing more - used in case he had to kill his horse if he got hung up in the rigging and was in danger of being dragged to death - and for 'some' personal protection, and many cattle outfits proscribed the carry of revolvers in later years, because they could escalate a situation far past a fistfight.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Wolfgang]

I've never heard that it "was common".   More likely that it was very "uncommon".   The Patterson revolvers that the Texas Rangers were armed with were issued with a second cylinder. Virtually all cased Patersons that I've seen have an extra cylinder included.  Later the rangers carried a pair of Walkers and I never heard of them having any extra cylinders for them.  In the very excellent film about Gettysburg in the "fight for the little round top" you can see the officer in charge ( I forget the name just now ) reloading his pistol between confederate charges by swapping the cylinders.  The cavalry in the civil war era used revolvers and sabers as primary weapons and often carried many revolvers in pomel holsters.  I'd imagine that many of them carried extra cylinders as a personal option.   Other than that revolvers were carried around for "maybe someday need it" and weren't shot that much.  So the ability to reload quickly wasn't something that really mattered much.   Just my $ .03 worth on the subject.   

[Trailrider]

I have not read of many instances of people actually packing an extra cylinder.  True, the Pattersons were sold with the 2nd cylinder, but that doesn't mean they were used that way very much.  As far as the Civil War/early Indian Wars usage is concerned, think about it...  If you were packing a Colt's M1851, M1860, etc, and you stopped to reload on horseback, you had to hold your reins with one hand (or your teeth...nice way to have to go to the dentist!!!), remove the barrel from the frame, pull off the empty cylinder, put it away somewhere, grab the second cylinder whilst holding the frame and barrel, and then reassemble the whole shebang, while you are being shot at or your horse is doing the equine equivalent of the do-si-do! 

Even with the Remmies, you still had a bunch of floundering with parts and pieces.  What you find, if you read up a bit, is that most troops, especially mounted ones (infantry officers were the only ones supposed to pack a pistol) carried at least one extra pistol.  Some of Mosby's Rangers packed a pair on their belts, and two to four more in pommel holsters on their saddles.

Those who could afford it, sometimes bought Smith & Wesson #2 revolvers, as they were faster to reload with metallic cartridges than messing with cap-and-ball stuff...as a backup, of course.

[Shotgun Franklin]

In my opinion, and that's what it is, it makes sense to carry more than one gun into a battle or gunfight but I just don't see much period evidence that multiple cylinders were carried.

[Delmonico]

It has been writen down some Pony Express riders carried an extra cylinder, but with that one and a couple other mentioned cases, where are you hearing the information that it was common?  My research has never shown it was.

[St. George]

The 'drama' of Clint Eastwood slowly installing his cylinders during the scene in 'Pale Rider' was filled with portent - but was hardly accurate - it was merely a plot device that was designed to add to a pivotal point in a movie.

As has been mentioned - folks during the era weren't wandering about like they were at a cowboy shoot, since actual 'gunfights' were few and far between.

There's a world of difference between the 'reel' Old West and the 'real' Old West and they write reference books about the latter...

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[S. Quentin Quale, Esq.]

Would this count as "evidence" that extra cylanders were commonly in use?  This is a USN cartridge box, specific era unknown but before the adoption of the carticge firing .38 in the 1880s.  IIRC I found this series of photos on this site.  

An individual cylander would be a difficult "carry" in many circumstances.  I've got a Single Six with the magnum and regular cylanders.  I've carried the "spare" before and it's too heavy for a shirt pocket and too big for a pants pocket.  A "possibles" bag is the best thing I've found.

I agree that there would likely be a big difference between "military" carry and "civilian" carry, particularly if the person were in physically active work like working cows, buillding fences, etc.  It would also vary, I susupect with region.  In a place where miscreants were common having a weapon within reasonable reach would be a necessity.  In more settled areas the necessity would be less.

SQQ

[St. George]

In short - no.

This was developed for a cartridge-pack device, and not a spare cylinder carrier - built 'specifically' for the Navy - in 1889.

It was developed for the newly-issued Colt .38 DA, in order to carry the Colt Cartridge Pack - a six-round reloadable device similar to the one developed by Kelton in 1888.

The Colt-made cartridge-packs were invented and patented by Carl J. Ehbets, who assigned rights to Colt on April 30, 1890 - Patent No# 402,424.

Hardly 'in common use' - definitely not a cylinder...

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Ima Sure Shot]

I have read somewhere -can't remember where- that the large pockets, sometimes 4 or so on overshirts in Civil War were put there and at an angle to contain extra cylinders mainly by groups like Quantrills raiders. The amount of fire power was One reason they were feared so much. Ride through town shoot -turn around at a safe area outside of town -change cylinder- ride back through town -shoot a lot more. A type of shock and awe.  Until that time shirt pockets were not common. I can not document this as I can not recall the source. celeste

[St. George]

It was easier for border trash to carry additional revolvers - and they're pictured with them - since they'd be able to use them more effectively during their depredations against poorly-armed farmers and civilians.

Try putting a fully-loaded cylinder into any pocket - they're not conducive to ease of carry - and capping on the fly is difficult at best, moreso when being shot at and when the adrenaline rush hits.

As to the shirts - no one knows for certain 'what' was carried, since no documentation is extant, and pockets being what they are - only assumptions can be made.

A safe bet might be tobacco.

Now - back to the idea of using actual, referenced documentation...

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[S. Quentin Quale, Esq.]

In short - no.

This was developed for a cartridge-pack device, and not a spare cylinder carrier - built 'specifically' for the Navy - in 1889.

It was developed for the newly-issued Colt .38 DA, in order to carry the Colt Cartridge Pack - a six-round reloadable device similar to the one developed by Kelton in 1888.

The Colt-made cartridge-packs were invented and patented by Carl J. Ehbets, who assigned rights to Colt on April 30, 1890 - Patent No# 402,424.

Hardly 'in common use' - definitely not a cylinder...

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

Thank you.  You've helped ID this.

Was the "carttirdge pack" the functional equivalent of the "speed loader?"  I've not heard of one before.

SQQ

[St. George]

Indeed it was - it was also reloadable - but most were discarded after initial use - according to reports.

It was made of light metal and a spring arrangement.

It cost .25 - and that was 'real money' at the time for the military  - so their use was eventually discontinued.

There was even an earlier version for the Schofield - made of a wooden 'spool' and six rounds were held in place by a glued paper band.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Mogorilla]

" border trash "-Ouch!     Words hurt.   But yes, they carried lots and lots of revolvers.  Bloody Bill was said to have carried six or eight in a bag on his saddle.  Far easier to carry loaded revolvers than trying to change a cylinder while galloping through Lawrence.  Especially with torch in the other hand. 

[Jrw8214]

Ive seen this device St. George talks about. They had them for the .455 Webley revolvers aswell and ive seen a youtube video demonstration of one. Pretty cool but i can see how the army would cheap out on them eventually.

[St. George]

That would be the 'Prideaux Quick-Loader' - a very difficult-to-find accessory for the Webley collector , but they 'are' available - mostly from other collectors in England.

The earlier American-made quick-loaders pop up, but almost always as a surprise.

The military didn't 'cheap out' - the Navy didn't 'really' need such devices, after all - but they did like their gizmos, and like everything during those particular times, technologies were changing and adapting rapidly.

The Army's solution was a drilled wooden block, and it worked admirably - and for a far longer period of time, since it was 'captured' in its carrier and thus it was always going to be reloaded.

The Army kept that item in use until adoption of the M1911.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Jrw8214]

True they are rare. Aside from the video of one on youtube, ive only seen one Webley MKVI for sale with one. It was tied with a string to the lanyard ring to make sure it stayed with the revolver.

[Montana Slim]

I saw one cased set with 1849 Wells Fargo with an extra C&B cylinder...It was at RI auction.

"Rare" is definitely my take on the situation.

Regards,
Slim

[Wolfgang]

In short - no.
This was developed for a cartridge-pack device, and not a spare cylinder carrier - built 'specifically' for the Navy - in 1889.
It was developed for the newly-issued Colt .38 DA, in order to carry the Colt Cartridge Pack - a six-round reloadable device similar to the one developed by Kelton in 1888.
The Colt-made cartridge-packs were invented and patented by Carl J. Ehbets, who assigned rights to Colt on April 30, 1890 - Patent No# 402,424.
Hardly 'in common use' - definitely not a cylinder...

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

Very interesting.  Thanks for posting.   

[Fox Creek Kid]

...The average guy carrying a cap and ball revolver wasn't wandering the West armed to the teeth like Missouri border trash - ready to take on all comers...

That´s one of the funniest things ever posted here.