Spencer made in Belgium *** Many Photos Added ***

[ericdupansu]

hello,

I'm French and it's my first question on your forum, thank you for forgiving my bad English.

I'm looking for some informations about a Spencer carbine made in Belgium maybe by Falisse & Trapmann, but the hammer (not broken) and the forend  does not seem standard. The frame is marking " Union Armuriere Belge LIEGE"

thank you for your help

éric

[Two Flints]

Eric,

The forend in your phots seems to have been cut back.  Wish you had a sharper photo to see the detail better.  Can you re-take the photo and Email it to me at fsgrand2@fairpoint.net

Never mind Eric maybe these are better to look at.





Two Flints

ALSO:

Does this link help?  Scroll down to the Belgium Spencer photos.

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20e%20f/a%20falisse%20et%20trapmann%20gb.htm

[Herbert]

that they were made for Brazil is interesting,needs looking into anyone from Brazil, that would know ,i have always wanted to examin one to see how the centerfire pin is set up,I do know that the Belgins made a lot of rifles for the Brazilians later on mainly the single shot Chabiline ,sort of looked like a martini

[Herbert]

A frend who works at a fierarms museum is convinced these Beligium Spencers were made on Spencer tooling posibly sold to Belgim by Winchester,his other thery is they are spencers remarked in Belgum ,they do look licke very close copys of NM Spencer carbines,but i can not say as i have not examend one,but i would say that you could youse parts of a spencer to fix the Belgum spencer

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

More photos Emailed to me by Eric in France, of his interesting Spencer, made in Belgium, and apparently shipped to Brazil with the indicated modifications - different type of hammer and shorter wooden forearm.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

Two Flints

[Herbert]

it is defintly difrent than other Falisse & Trappman carbines that i have seen photos of,the hamer seems to fit the cutout in the frame much beter than the spencer style hamer in other photos and is difrent in shape & liter ,the sadle bar is not there replaced by a thin plate to hold the lock,stock is made to fit this plate,leaver is a difrent shape maybe just bent,have to be closly examined,forstock wood seems to match butstock wood so is lickly original,very difrent than other examples,is it a centerfire licke other examples,this carbine is asking a lot of questions any other photos of others that have not been published to conpare,i have a feeling that is the original hamer for the centerfier spencers,but replaced in other examples because it was prone to breakige.

Would it be posible to get photos of the upper breachblock if it is a centerfire?

[Two Flints]

Photos to follow text description  

DESCRIPTION: Scarce Belgian manufactured Spencer M.1865 cavalry saddle ring carbine. This is a Brazilian military contract carbine, as indicated by Brazilian arsenal cartouche stamped on the right side of the buttstock, "Fabrica d'Armas na Conceicao, AGC" (Arsenal de Guerra da Corte). Spencer M.1865 repeating carbine replaced Minie carbine as a primarily Brazilian cavalry weapon during the Paraguayan War. It was the first repeating long gun issued to Brazilian military forces (along with Winchester M.1866). Brazilian Spencers were purchased from the USA and Belgium. This carbine was manufactured by Union Armuriére Belge in Liege, Belgium, as indicated by marking on the upper part of the receiver. The left side of the receiver displays "Crown over E (in a circle)". The Liege house proof marks are stamped on the receiver and barrel. Several other Belgian maker's marks and proofs are stamped on various parts of the carbine. Spencer is a manually operated lever-action repeater fed from a tube magazine. It was adopted by the Union Army cavalry, during the American Civil War. Carbine style stock with one barrel band. Steel receiver. Ramp and leaf rear sight. Fixed front sight. Overall length: 37.25 inch. Barrel length: 20 inch. Scarce! CONDITION: Overall, in NRA antique fine condition. The metal parts are covered with uniform light patina. No pitting. The stocks show the usual handling marks, light dings and scratches. The finish on the stocks is original. No cracks in wood. Bore is in excellent condition, with strong and shiny rifling. Mechanically, the carbine is in fine condition with crisp, strong action. All the internal parts of the rifle are in fine condition, with no visible wear. All the markings and numbers on metal and wood are clearly visible. Excellent quality of machining and parts fitting! Nice example of scarce Belgian Spencer M.1865 cavalry carbine!

[Herbert]

you can clealy see the above Belgium Spencer is a centerfire wile ERICDUPANSUs varation seems to be a rimfire,though i can not tell for sure by the photo allso can not see the Brazilan mark,were did you find the information about them being yoused by Brazil,there has not been a published photo of the Spencer centerfire cartrige,looks lick Brazil is the place to look for information ,I also wonder weather theUSBrazilian Spencers were centerfire,this post has realy got me intreaged, seem to be finding information that has not come to light before

[ericdupansu]

thank's a lot for the details. I comfirme that my spencer is a rimfire.

[Herbert]

thank's a lot for the details. I comfirme that my spencer is a rimfire.

yours is the fist one that has been confirmed as a rimfire,can you see weather there is a indent in the face of the chamber for the percusion slide,US Spencer rimfires hav this,also the hamer seems to be broken and profecinly smoothed over,i say this because there is no knerling for grip wen cocking,how hard is it to cock lick it is,the forstock is very difrent than other Spencers of the same maker,could be a replacment,this is a very interesting variation but there would have to be another one turn up the same to confirm it is not a one of a kind or posibly experimental,but the serial number seems to put it in the midle of production although some think the fist number is a asembely number so that would make it No 43 they might have still been finilising the design.Sory i was looking at the wrong serial number,943 is the Brazilian contract one,the centerfire ones that turn up acoasionly and are well described.Serial No 1799 on the rimfire version puts it well after other recorded centerfire versions ,it is looking more lickly it has been modified later on,probly because 56-50 centerfire cartriges were hard to find and 56-50 rimfire cartriges were made till the 1930s

[fiftyfiverifle]

Searching the War of the Triple Aliance will give you mention of the Brazilian and Argentine Cavalry being armed with Spencer carbines. There were American and Belgian examples. I haven't been able to find how many were bought. The centerfire conversion looks to be factory. If I could figure out how to insert a photo, I would.

[Two Flints]

fiftyfive rifle,

Any photos you want to post on SSS, just send them to me and I will add them to your text post.  My Email appears below.

Two Flints    fsgrand2@fairpoint.net

[Snakeeater]

More photos of the Falisse & Trapman Spencer:

http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20bresil/militaires/a%20falisse%20and%20trapmann%20gb.htm

Slides 12, 13, 17 depict the Spencer rim-fire upper block converted to center-fire using a similar conversion to that was later adapted for the S&S center-fire conversion block. Slides 8 and 10 of the first set of photos, and slide 8 of the second set of photos (depicting another F&T Spencer) are each equipped with the upper block modified for the Spencer cutoff, demonstrating these are copies of the New Model Spencer rather than merely copies of the Model 1865 (Stabler cutoff) type.

http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20bresil/militaires/a%20spencer%20belge%20gb.htm

[Herbert]

Thank you for posting this,I have been trying to find out more about these carbines for a some time,seems there is a few variations in them,interesting that at least some were originly rim-fires,the only one I have seen was not a converted rim-fire block but was always a center-fire,the second link seems to show one that has been converted to single shot for some reason as well as the lock springs being changed