Full bp loads,,,concerning the SAA's ?

[Marshal Deadwood]

Is it the consensus here, that 35gr 3f bp under a 250gr lead bullet,,, does in no way over-stress a SAA ?

MD

[Dirty Brass]

I've read here that these are large frame revolvers and can stand up to any load of BP you can stuff in them. I'm inclined to agree.......[but that don't make it fer sure positive OK] 

I'd have no quams running that load in mine tho....periodically.

[44caliberkid]

No problem at all.  The only thing it overstresses are Timers and Range Officers.

[hellgate]

It is my understanding from what I have read (and you KNOW you can believe everything you read) that the original SAA loading was based on the old Dragoon loading of 40 grs BP under the bullet (don't recall the bullet weight). It was determined to be too much of a load for the troopers so the load was reduced to 30 grs powder. The 40 grs was in the old balloon head cases with more room than the solid head cases of today that can only hold about 35grs.

[Angel_Eyes]

Some one may contradict me, but, it is my understanding that when the Colt SAA was first produced, it came in 44-40 Winchester.

This round had a 200gr bullet, later came the .45 Colt with a 255gr bullet but still using 40gr B/P, so I don't see a problem with your

load, especially if your gun is made of modern materials.

AE

[Wills Point Pete]

 Okay, a tiny history lesson. The SAA was first produced in .45 Colt, all the other chamberrngs came later. The first loading of the .45 Colt was about 40 grains of black and a 250-255 grain bullet. This loading was a little much for the wrought iron frames of the fist SAAs so they downloaded it to 28-30 grains of powder and a 230 grain bullet. The cavalrymen of the day really were glad to see this, because, at the time, no cavalryman could weigh more than 130-140 pounds so the horses would last.

The SAAs and clones of today can easily take a forty grain charge and a 250-255 grain lead bullet. Today's steel is that much better than the steel of the 1870s, not to mention the quality control. The 40 grain charge will go in, you will need to use some kind of compression die, though in order to get that much powder and a bullet into the case. You don't need much of a die, just a brass or copper rod that will fit tight into the cartridge case and squoosh the powder down far enough to seat the bullet without smushing it up. For normal use, 35 or so grains of powder, whatever you can put in and get 1/16-1/8 compression is fine, or less with wads or filler. Most everyone likes to load a few big loads, just to try it. Most go back to what is easier to load, those 40/250 loads are kinda fun but a pain to load.

St John of Browning, when loading the .45ACP for the Army loaded the smokeless powder equivalent  of then-military .45 Colt load of 28/230 for the 1911 Colt.

[Marshal Deadwood]

I appreciate the post guys. Oddly enough,,,the 35gr bp, lowered my poa from about 2" hight at 10yds to just a 'smidge' (on the average) above 'dead center.' umm,,,maybe half inch above poa on the average.

Is that because the bullet leaves the barrel faster and 'revolver jump' has less effect ?

I personally love the stiffer load. I was just wanting to be sure and not 'over stress' my SAA's.

MD

[Boomboom]

For the 40 grains an more loadins, an solid head cases Wills Point Pete is right about  the loadin bein a pain, i LIKE the thud&blunder loads, so i use a bullet with a real flat meplat, more weight in a shorter bullet, and seat it out to just clear the cylinder mouth.

Gives ya a lot more room to play with and of course, loadin Swiss 4F, 44 grains by actual weight with a lube wad is easy doin it this way.

And the BOOM and my two shot speeds how i got called Boomboom.

Oh ya, an she chronos a cool 1090 fps from 7-1/2 inch makes it a real hog killin load.

[Boomboom]

I appreciate the post guys. Oddly enough,,,the 35gr bp, lowered my poa from about 2" hight at 10yds to just a 'smidge' (on the average) above 'dead center.' umm,,,maybe half inch above poa on the average.

Is that because the bullet leaves the barrel faster and 'revolver jump' has less effect ?

I personally love the stiffer load. I was just wanting to be sure and not 'over stress' my SAA's.

MD

Howdy

Long as ya have modern made guns, there jus aint no problem. the 44 grain load i just wrote on is my favorite, an i shoot bout 5000 a year of em.

That means 5 years on one SAA is somethin round 25000 and shes tight and sound.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

My standard 45 Colt load is 2.2CC of FFg powder under a 250 grain PRS Big Lube bullet, lubed with SPG. This amount of powder will be compressed about 1/16" by the PRS bullet when seated. The simple fact is, not all brands of Black Powder weigh the same, so the actual weight of my 2.2CC charge varies by the brand of powder I use. I keep a chart in my loading notebook. Back when I was using Goex, 2.2CC of FFg only weighed about 34.5 grains. Elephant was heavier, around 37.5 grains for the same 2.2CC. These days I have been using Schuetzen, it weighs the least, only about 33 grains for a 2.2CC charge. I don't need a compression die with these charges, the bullet compresses the powder just fine all by itself. I see no point in trying to cram in 40 grains of powder in a modern solid head case, 2.2CC is plenty. My loads always generate favorable comments from the whimpy Smokelss shooters. Cramming in more powder seems to me to be a pointless exercise in wasting powder.

the original loading of the 45 Colt round, developed jointly by Colt and the Army, was indeed 40 grains of FFg under a 250-255 grain soft lead hollow based bullet. However, these were neither modern solid head cases, nor were they Balloon Head cases. These were copper folded rim Benet primed cases, which had even more case capacity than Balloon Head cases. This is because they used inside priming, extra space in the case was not eaten up by a primer pocket.

Here is a photo of some Benet primed folded rim copper cases, complete with a cutaway view of one.



Here is a comparison of a modern solid head case with a Balloon Head case.The Balloon Head is on the left. Yes, these are 44-40, not 45 Colt, but you get the idea. It is most likely that old Balloon head 45 Colt rounds probably only had around 37-38 grains of powder in them, probably not 40 grains. They did not try to cram extra powder into their rounds back then.



40 grains of FFg under a round ball will never generate the same sorts of pressure that it will behind a 250 grain lead bullet. A 44 caliber round ball only weighs in the vicinity of 150-160 grains. The heavier the bullet, the more the inertia, and the more the pressure builds before it moves.

The SAA was first chambered for 44-40 in 1878, 45 Colt in 1873, and yes, 45 Colt was the original chambering. 44-40 was Winchester's darling, developed for the Model 1873 rifle, which did not really get into full production until 1874, same with the ammo. A few years later Colt decided to offer the SAA in 44-40. And the 44-40 version was always known as the Frontier Six Shooter, the only version of the SAA that ever had its own name.

The very first SAAs, along with a lot of the earlier percussion revolvers had frames and cylinders made of materials resembling high grade malleable iron, not steel. And yes, a few did blow up with 40 grain powder/250 grain bullet loads. From aprox. SN 96,000 (1883) through SN 180,000 (1898) frames and cylinders were made of materials resembling modern medium carbon type steels. Later versions of this material had a better heat treatment performed on them, so that by 1900 Colt felt confident in factory warrantying the SAA for Smokeless Powder. Guns made before 1900 should only be shot with Black Powder, which does not generate the same high pressure spikes that Smokeless Powder does. In 1935, with the introduction of the 357 Magnum chambering, Colt began using a finer grain, higher tensile strength ordinance quality steel. That is what they are still using today. Black Powder does not develop the kinds of pressure that Smokeless Powders do, a case full of either FFg or FFFg and a 250 grain bullet will not hurt a SAA of modern manufacture, nor will it harm an imported clone.

I shoot full loads in my Colts all the time, although frankly, recently I have started to wimp out a little bit because of my advancing age and have been loading up 45 Schofields with a whimpy 28 grains of FFg under the J/P 45-200 200 grain bullet.

Still impresses the Smokeless guys.

[FriscoCounty]

Wasn't the first alternate chambering for the SAA .44RF (Henry)?

[Grapeshot]

Back on subject, I've loaded 40 grains, weighed, of 2Fg GOEX in Starline .45 Colt cases and fired them through both my GW2 and an older Jaeger Colt SAA Clone with no ill effects.  I was using the PRS 250 grain Big Lube Boolit.  They had plenty of bark and recoil was maangeable but stiff.

[Mako]

Wasn't the first alternate chambering for the SAA .44RF (Henry)?

FriscoCounty,
"Technically" the .45 Colt was the second caliber.  The original prototypes were submitted in .44 American, which is the same cartridge that was popular in the S&W Mod. 3.  The .44 Henry was introduced in 1875.  The military started issuing the shortened .45 "Revolver Cartridge" to be used in both Schofields and Colts in 1875 as well.  It only had 28 grains of BP and a 230 gr bullet. This was actiually not an alternate chambering, they just issued shorter milder loads.

Then the .44-40 in 1878, the .38-40 and .32-20 in 1884, .41 Colt in 1885, the .38 Long Colt in 1887.  There were some .22LR produced around 1885.  There may be some European cartridges mixed in there before 1900 but I believe the rest of the cartridges we are familiar with were all introduced in the 20th century.

But as far as production chamberings are concerned you may consider yourself correct.

Regards,
Mako

[will52100]

I wouldn't say ANY black powder load is safe, but any normal black powder load would be safe.  I remember reading about Elmer Kieth and how he blew up a 45 SAA.  From what I remember he ground black powder to the consistancy of flower and packed in 50 grains in ballon head brass with a 380 grain bullet sized down from .458 to .454.  Acourding to the article about the third shot the cylinder and top strap went away.   I think about that time he switched to screwing around with the 44 special as the cylinder had the same OD as the 45, but because it was in 44 it was a smidge thicker on the chambers.  Also I don't remember if it stated if it was a smokless or black powder frame gun.

As long as you don't get stupid with it you should be fine.  Also from what I remember the standard load for the dragoon was 40 grains of black powder and a 200 grain conicle.  I've got a pair of them and that load works very well in them.  With a round ball I can fit 50 grains with no problem.

[Boomboom]

"330 grain bullet and finely gound powder" big surprise that one, i read the same account, here we go boys, i gotta revolver with a wrought iron cylinder with walls ya can read a newspaper through, think i'll just make some pipe bomb loads an try her out

Don't know personally, i have read where black powder can under certian conditions reach 100,000 psi, bet old Elmer found that out experimentin.

[will52100]

I've read the same thing, aparently the Navy did some experiments and found that black powder when compressed enough explodes, it doesn't burn like a propelant.  Don't think you'd be able to get that kind of compression with a reloading press or with 2f or 3f powder.

Just think, if Colt had made there cylinders a bit thicker, like the old model Rugers we might have a 45 magnum instead of 44 mag!

[Blackpowder Burn]

We do have 45 magnums - they're called the 454 Casull and the 460 S&W! 

[will52100]

Shoot, I figure 40 grains of black powder and a 250 grain bullet are close enough of a magnum for me!   Though I'd love to have a freedom arms in .454!

[Boomboom]

Shoot, I figure 40 grains of black powder and a 250 grain bullet are close enough of a magnum for me!   Though I'd love to have a freedom arms in .454!

The company i got my spare cylinders from make five-shot cylinders for Ruger and stainlees Remmies in .454 They said ya havta load down for long life in the Remmie, but not iin the Old Army.

[will52100]

^{The company i got my spare cylinders from make five-shot cylinders for Ruger and stainlees Remmies in .454  They said ya havta load down for long life in the Remmie, but not iin the Old Army.}  Is that long life of the gun or the shooter?!!!

I've got a Uberti with a R&D conversion to 45 colt and with my black powder loads it's not real comfortable to shoot, would hate to see how bad it kicks with full power .454!  Come to think of it, it'd be a tight squess as my 45's are durn near flush with the end of the cylinder.  Must use a thin backing plate.  Sure would be interesting at a match with a .454 loaded with black powder though!