Hall percussion rifles and carbines

[Dead I]

I own an original Hall musket that is dated on the breech block 1828.  It's percussion, but it was probably converted.  Mine is as close to new that you'll see an old gun.  It's got about 95% original clear brown finish, mirror bore with 16 grooves rifling.  The final inch and a half of the bore is smooth.  I read once why, but I can't recall know.  It is set up for a bayonet.  It's .52 caliber.  You move a lever below the breech and the breech opens up, upwards.  They pushed in the paper cartridge after biting off the end. 

The front and rear sights are off to the left because the hammer is in the middle of the breech.  Mine shoots pretty straight for the first five or six shots, then it's got to be cleaned.  It burns the dickens out of your face when you touch it off.  It has an adjustable trigger pull.

Yes, you remove just one screw and the bolt can be removed and you could shoot it as a pistol, but it'd cut the heck out of your hand if you did so. Mine still has the case hardening on the bolt.  I read that the Confederates welded the bolts down and shot them like muzzle loaders.  I think that'd work fine. 

I paid $625 for mine in 1972 from Bob Elze of Else Fargo in Annaheim, CA. Used to be you could find a flinglock breech and I looked for one for years, but if I'd find one now I'll bet it's be EXPENSIVE.  I saw a replica about 10 years ago.  It was the carbine.

[w.b. masterson]

For those of you who haven't read up on Hall, he really was the one who should be credited with the concept of interchangeable parts manufacture.  Hall had a shop at the Harper's Ferry Arsenal and helped them to develop the concept into reality.  He also worked with the Springfield Arsenal to mass produce the same rifle at both places. 

BAT

[Dead I]

For those of you who haven't read up on Hall, he really was the one who should be credited with the concept of interchangeable parts manufacture.  Hall had a shop at the Harper's Ferry Arsenal and helped them to develop the concept into reality.  He also worked with the Springfield Arsenal to mass produce the same rifle at both places. 

BAT

Hall was a dentist and he did work with Eli Witney and yes, the Hall did have interchangable parts.  Mine is a beauty.  I recall hearing about a replica carbine not too many years ago, but I've never seen one.  But this I can tell you for a fact.  When you shoot the thing the gas blows back into your face and you'll have little black spots on your cheek and forehead.  It is not pleasant to shoot.  Fremont took some on his trek along the west coast.  You can reload it pretty fast and it is well made.  I've seen a few for sale in gun shows, all originals.  I think I've shot mine three times firing about a dozen rounds each session. I don't believe I'll ever do it again.

[Dead I]

John C. Fremont brought Halls  with him to take on his expedition down the west coast in the early 1840's.  Fremont was not a "jerk" at all, but a great pathfinder/explorer.  He was not however a very good Union general, and he probably did qualify for "Jerk" at that time.

His journals are amazingly accurate.  I have a friend who has traced his camp grounds from Washington to the northern border of Nevada.  Fremont's journals are that precise.  I wonder if my Hall was one of his. I'll post some pics.  

There was a replica of the smooth bore Hall carbine a few years ago, but they were expensive and I don't think they made many of them, if at all.

[Dr. Bob]

SORRY, but Fremont was NOT a pathfinder!!!  Every where he went, he was guided by a mountain man who had been there before and showed him the way!  His wife was a very good writer and produced the reports that he submitted to the Chief of Engineers - Congress.  During the Mexican War, he refused to obey Gen. Stephen Kearney, who was appointed Gov. of California by the President of the United States.  He should have been courts martialed there and executed!  The father of his wife was US Senator Thomas Benton of Missouri and so he was returned to Washington City.  Politics kept him from conviction and he went on to be a terrible General in the ACW.  He was very impressed with his reputation, [false pride] and thought that since his father in law was a Senator, the Army Regulations did not apply to him.  He started an exploration in southeastern Colorado in the winter and the party got caught in a blizzard and nearly perished.  He had no common sense, not much leadership, and wanted to promote himself.  Sorry, but he WAS a JERK!  A big time Jerk.  I have studied the Topographical Engineers and any of them were better that Fremont!!  Yes, I feel strongly about the subject!

[Hangtown Frye]

I have to agree with Dr. Bob on this one.  I've studied Fremont fairly closely, and he lives up to the worst of what people wrote about him, I'm afraid.  The best quote I've come across though was from the Mountain Man who actually did most of the "path finding" for "The Pathfinder", Joseph R. Walker.  He taught Carson pretty much everything Carson knew, but when Walker got disgusted with Fremont at Fremont's  "defiance" of Mexico at Gavilan Peak (and then had to sneak away because he forgot to camp near water), Fremont decided to leave him out of his journals and promote Carson into his place.  At any rate, as Walker rode away, he stopped near Salinas to visit some friends, Mr. and Mrs. Martin (who had come West in the wagon train Walker had led through Walker Pass in 1841. 

There he commented to Martin that "if it wasn't such an insult to the Fairer Sex, I'd say that Fremont was a timid as a woman".

This from a man who seldom had an unkind word for anyone.  Walker was well respected by all as a consumate Mountain Man, who had led far more expeditions than Jedediah Smith, but only lost one man in his travels, as opposed to Smith who's parties were routinely massacred.  Walker was probably THE finest of the Mountain Men, yet unsung because he was rather humble about it.  But in the day, he was the top of the heap.

At any rate, Fremont was quite impressed with his own press, and he was lucky enough the have a beautiful, brainy and well-connected wife, Jessie Benton Fremont.  Without her writing his journals and covering his mistakes, he would be less than a nobody today, I believe.  Or maybe known for being a bragart and a liar. 

He could draw a map though, I'll give him that much! Or at least his German Cartographer could...

Cheers!

Gordon

[Dead I]

Fremont did take along some mountain men.  Kit Carson for one, who admired the man.  But Fremont did lead his expedition and he covered lots of unknown and unchartered land.  He therefore could not have been guided since no white man had been there before. He made wonderful maps and fantastically clear journals.  He did get snowed in and he did lead his men down a steep mountain ridge in the middle of the night without a single loss.  He also named Summer Lake, because it was so much warmer down there.  I've been to the lake and explored the ridge line that he walked along that night.

Jesse, his wife was an amazing writer and her father was a very important senator.  Fremont was way out of his element as a military general, but as an explorer he was excellent and very successful.  He did meddle in the politics of California and he may have had something to do with the Mexican War.  He did want to replace John Sutter in California, but it did not happen.

No use to get so riled up about this old pioneer.  Have you read his journals?  I have, at least parts of them, and I know the man who has traced Fremont's camp ground down through Oregon and into Nevada.  He used Fremont's find maps and journals to guide him.

[Dead I]

The Hall percussion rifle:

[Dr. Bob]

Great picture!!  I used to own a flintlock Hall rifle.  Neat, neat, neat!  Thanks!! 

[Hangtown Frye]

Nice Rifle there, Dead I.  Very nice.  Mine is "in the white", the brown having long since been rubbed off.

Per Fremont, I just don't like to see him getting credit for things he didn't do.  Seems as though if there was a scandal in the West between 1846 and 1881, he was somehow involved, be it siding with Commodore Stockton in California against General Kearney, purchasing refurbished Hall's Carbines during the early days of the Civil War (not his fault, it was Ordnance's fault, but he did get the blame for it), Declaring slaves to be freed in Missouri, which was a loyal Union state (a year prior to the Emancipation Proclamation),  or naming a Democrat to be Sheriff of Cochise County (Johnny Behan) rather than a good Republican (Wyatt Earp).  Again, the issues in Tombstone were not exactly his fault, he was actually being rather clever there for once, but he got some blame for it never the less.

Per Jessie, she may be credited with bringing together the flower of California Gold Rush writers and helping to make them famous, such as Brett Hart.  I have TONS of respect for that lady, believe me!

Cheers!

Gordon

[Dead I]

I cannot claim to be a Fremont expert, not even close.  But over the years I've run across some great articles on he and his lovely and talented wife, Jesse.  Concerning the Hall.  It's said they used to pull the breech and use it as a pistol.  If doing so, when fired it must have torn their hands all to pieces.  Here's why:

[Dead I]

Great picture!!  I used to own a flintlock Hall rifle.  Neat, neat, neat!  Thanks!! 

I think those flinter Halls are wonderful looking rifles and must be a kick to shoot.  First you get the flash in the pan and then the blast in your face!  When I bought this, many years ago, the seller said that if I looked around I'd be ablt to find a flint breech for it.  I've looked...never found one...

I am astounded about the great condition of this rifle.  Most of the browning and bluing on the breech block is intact.  Rifling is bright and shiny.  The breech is marked 1831, so it's been around. 

[GunClick Rick]

Here ya go

http://www.rubylane.com/item/30137-3345/25-1935-Glass-Magic-Lantern

[Dead I]

Here ya go

http://www.rubylane.com/item/30137-3345/25-1935-Glass-Magic-Lantern

One can go insane surfing that site. 

[Dr. Bob]

Rick,

Now we know why!!        But is nice to have company!!     

[Dead I]

Earlier in this thread someone mentioned Joseph Walker.  I have visited his grave.  It is in a cemetery in Martinez, California.  Local people know about it.  I was given directions to it.  I wish I had taken a picture. 

[Highlander]

Seems I've found this topic too late. Based on dates of posts, is there anyone out there still involved with Hall carbines, restoration and reproduction?  I have an original 1837 Hall carbine recovered from a barn upstate NY in in very poor condition.  I will be rebuilding this to a shooter with a new stock, hammer, sights and bayonet part. Barrel will be restored to shooting condition. Breech block in good condition with most of bluing intact. Barrel has some bright steel and smooth original browning on bottom where it was in contact with wood. Upper parts of carbine metal had surface rust I removed with buffing pad. Attached photos of it.

[Fox Creek Kid]

...They were considered obsolete when [that idiot] Fremont purchased a bunch of them for use in the Civil War. (One of his many scandles.)...

http://www.jstor.org/stable/2114082?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

[Highlander]

As I recall at the outbreak of the war, everyone was scrambling for weapons to arm their troops. Even large quantities of flintlock muskets left over were bought up and issued. So I surmise that while the Hall may have been obsolete, it was still a functional firearm that was available, cheap and serviceable.  The fact that other military units also purchased and used them does lend some credibility to their reliability and durability, weather aside. And even the muzzle loading percussion firearms also suffered in heavy rain. I have shot competition and turkey shoots in steady rain with my guns, both flintlock and percussion. So I know the difficulties that were encountered.

[Oregon Bill]

If someone could get Pedersoli or Uberti to make a Hall percussion carbine, I'd get in line to buy one.