Hall percussion rifles and carbines

Forty Rod · January 31, 2010, 11:47:48 AM

Would there have been any civilian use of these guns west of the Mississippi? Did anyone make a repro? (It seems I saw one once, but I'm not sure.)

Books OToole · January 31, 2010, 12:28:49 PM

Quote from: Forty Rod on January 31, 2010, 11:47:48 AM
Would there have been any civilian use of these guns west of the Mississippi? Did anyone make a repro? (It seems I saw one once, but I'm not sure.)

The Hall's rifles and carbines did see considerable use west of the Mississippi. All of it before the Civil War.

The rifles were carried by the Long Expedition 1819-1823 [?] and the carbines were the standard issue for the 1st (& 2nd) Dragoons. The dragoons carried them from 1833 in to the 1850's. (They took a step backwards to a muzzleloading carbine in the 1850s when they got the Dragoon sidearms.)

They were considered obsolete when [that idiot] Fremont purchased a bunch of them for use in the Civil War. (One of his many scandles.)

No one currently makes a reproduction.

Books

Forty Rod · January 31, 2010, 12:34:17 PM

Looks like civilian use would be unlikely in early California / Oregon / Washington country.

Thanks. I'll cast my line in a different pond.

Roscoe Coles · January 31, 2010, 01:26:11 PM

Don't give up on the Hall. There is a repro of sorts in production. The Rifle Shoppe casts almost all the iron parts (you need to get a barrel made) and they offer stocks. The problem is that they are not always in stock and folks have had problems getting all the parts. Also, you have to put it together once you get them all.

Take a look at their site http://www.therifleshoppe.com/catalog_pages/us_arms/(us_arms).htm

Dunlap stocks www.dunlapwoodcrafts.com/milstocks.htm offers the stocks for some models

I have looked into building an early carbine, the 1836 or 1840. They would be OK for California by date, and there is a ca. 1850 Daguerreotype of a civilian with a Hall carbine and a Colt Dragoon on page 127 of Wilson's "The Peacemakers." However, they would not have been all that common with civilians.

Major 2 · January 31, 2010, 01:43:51 PM

Your memory is good..there was an attempt to tool up a Replica here in the USA.
The guy took some orders and even advertised in Gun & Ammo's Magazine...then disappeared.
I owned an original when I reenacted Tex-Mex Dragoon, it was Carbine but had been cut down from a rifle.
I traded it for orginial 59 Sharps, a with a friend and he still has the Halls.

Packing Iron shows a well armed Gent with a Halls Carbine on page 66..could have been the Photographer's prop as there is no providence with the photo.

I was typing this and got called away while Rosco replied..the Gent on Pg. 66 of PI also has a Dragoon.. a single shot something
$:-\$ a pepperbox ,and a knife..a bit over kill for carry ....I'm thinking more like posed shot.

St. George · January 31, 2010, 01:53:17 PM

Pretty much every studio shot is posed, since getting a picture taken was a big deal and folks all looked their best - the young ones trying to look well-prepared and even fierce.

A bit of 'theater' for the folks back home - all done in the saftey of a well-stocked photographer's studio.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

Roscoe Coles · January 31, 2010, 04:07:13 PM

Staged or not, that makes two known photos of civilians with Hall carbines, which means that they were available on the civilian market in the late 1840s and 1850s. As such, if you wanted to get one, I can't see a problem with authenticity. I talked with the folks at The Rifle Shoppe a while back about this and they assured me that they would cast up the parts as soon as they got the order, but I have heard otherwise from folks. At some point I might give it a try. It would be a nifty gun when completed.

As an aside, Hall was from Maine and if you go to the State museum in Augusta they have some of his tools along with a distinctly civilian pattern rifle and pistol that, if I remember correctly, belonged to him. They both use a version of the Hall block but they are more in the pattern of an American long rifle and pistol of the period. For kicks, anyone care to guess who the other famous gun designer from Maine was?

James Hunt · January 31, 2010, 04:48:45 PM

Well, I had to google this to make sure before looking like an idiot - but Hiram Maxim was born in Maine. Is that who you are thinking of? But, he went to live in Britain and I believe invented his machine gun in Europe - not here.

Roscoe Coles · January 31, 2010, 05:38:17 PM

We have a winner. Maxim was from Maine. There is supposed to be a Maxim museum somewhere there but I have not found it yet.

Forty Rod · January 31, 2010, 05:43:51 PM

Quote from: Roscoe Coles on January 31, 2010, 04:07:13 PM
Staged or not, that makes two known photos of civilians with Hall carbines, which means that they were available on the civilian market in the late 1840s and 1850s. As such, if you wanted to get one, I can't see a problem with authenticity. I talked with the folks at The Rifle Shoppe a while back about this and they assured me that they would cast up the parts as soon as they got the order, but I have heard otherwise from folks. At some point I might give it a try. It would be a nifty gun when completed.

As an aside, Hall was from Maine and if you go to the State museum in Augusta they have some of his tools along with a distinctly civilian pattern rifle and pistol that, if I remember correctly, belonged to him. They both use a version of the Hall block but they are more in the pattern of an American long rifle and pistol of the period. For kicks, anyone care to guess who the other famous gun designer from Maine was?

Warren Evans was a Maine-iac.

I just had a thought: the only guns I've ever owned that held that much ammo were a couple of Thompson submachine guns, three M-1 carbines, an M-2 carbine, and a Calico .22 carbine. I think Evans must still hold the record for the most rounds in a non-detachable magazine.

Books OToole · February 02, 2010, 11:55:38 AM

Over 25,000 Hall's carbines were produce between 1832 and 1850.

The carbines were only issued to the 1st & 2nd Dragoons. And probably to a couple Volunteer/Militia units.

By the mid-1850s they were all surplus. When (that idiot) Freemont purchased a batch of old obsolete Hall's carbines for use in the War Between the States, he bought them from a civilian distributer.

Books

Dr. Bob · February 03, 2010, 11:24:20 PM

For info on the Hall's rifles & carbines see:

Hall's Military Breechloaders, Peter A. Schmidt, Lincoln, RI, Andrew Mowbray, 1996. Table ! lists 19,870 rifles produced. Table 2 lists 24,664 carbines produced. Combined that is a total of 44,534. 16,978 in the hands of state militias in 1855. Just the facts!

Hangtown Frye · February 10, 2010, 09:52:48 PM

There are several references to Hall's being used by civilians, but the most interesting evidence is the number of them dug up during excavations in San Francisco in the past 20 years or so. When they've started construction on new buildings on what used to be part of San Francisco Bay before the Gold Rush, it isn't at all uncommon to uncover old ships that were being used as either storage or even shops during the early days when A.) ships were cheap (usually abandoned by the crews as soon as they hit SF) and B.) buildings were rare. At any rate, one of the ships which was excavated contained a large number of Hall's carbines, or rather the remains of them, since the ship burned during one of SF's periodic fires of the period. Anyway, good hard evidence of their availability in California in the very early 1850's.

As far as repro's go, Bill Laybourne of Ordnance Park made up a few dozen of them in the mid-1980's, but he's passed away long since. I had one of the first one's (#0013), and it was a fine shooter, with all of the major parts interchanging with my original. He used the Harper's Ferry-made M1842 as the pattern, complete with brass bands and buttplate. Sadly I traded it off to a friend, who later donated it to Ft. Gibson State Park in Oklahoma, where I assume it still lives. I have a photo of my compadres and I shooting off our Hall's carbines at night, BTW. LOTS of flame shooting out from the breech! It's pretty exciting, you might say.

Per the Rifle Shoppe parts, I wouldn't hold my breath. A friend has been waiting for more than five years for them to get around to casting the parts for the Hall he's been wanting to build, so unless you're real patient, I wouldn't bother with them.

Cheers!

Gordon

Major 2 · February 11, 2010, 05:54:58 AM

Quote from: Hangtown Frye on February 10, 2010, 09:52:48 PM
As far as repro's go, Bill Laybourne of Ordnance Park made up a few dozen of them in the mid-1980's, but he's passed away long since. I had one of the first one's (#0013), and it was a fine shooter, with all of the major parts interchanging with my original. He used the Harper's Ferry-made M1842 as the pattern, complete with brass bands and buttplate. Sadly I traded it off to a friend, who later donated it to Ft. Gibson State Park in Oklahoma, where I assume it still lives. I have a photo of my compadres and I shooting off our Hall's carbines at night, BTW. LOTS of flame shooting out from the breech! It's pretty exciting, you might say.
Gordon

In an earlier post I said ( Your memory is good..there was an attempt to tool up a Replica here in the USA.
The guy took some orders and even advertised in Gun & Ammo's Magazine...then disappeared. )

Bill Layboune of Ordnance Park was that attempt, I was unaware Bill had passed.
I knew he had made a few and the one I saw was very nice.

Forty Rod · February 13, 2010, 08:14:14 PM

The Hall's were unusual in that you could pull a single pin and remove the breech, lock, and trigger mechanism as a unit and use it as a fully functioning pistol.

pony express · February 13, 2010, 10:31:59 PM

I saw a carbine at a gunshow today, looked to be in fine shape, but with a price tag of just under $4,000, it didn't follow me home.....

Hangtown Frye · February 22, 2010, 09:42:19 PM

Quote from: Forty Rod on February 13, 2010, 08:14:14 PM
The Hall's were unusual in that you could pull a single pin and remove the breech, lock, and trigger mechanism as a unit and use it as a fully functioning pistol.

You can, but it cuts the hell out of the palm of your hand. Ask me how I know...

BTW, here's a photo of me and my Dragoon buddies shooting our Hall's Carbines at night. They're not flintlocks, the flash at the breech is the gas escaping from the gap between the breech-block and the barrel!

Cheers!

Gordon

Forty Rod · February 23, 2010, 12:16:22 AM

DAMN!

I mean just DAMN!!!

Tsalagidave · October 06, 2010, 05:19:35 PM

I second Hangtown Frye's post. The Hoff Store (ca. 1852) excavation in San Francisco (http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/hoffstore.pdf ) confirmed that a considerable amount of Mexican War era surplus including bayonet scabbards, cartridge boxes, Hall Carbines, other military arms and boxes of surplus ammo were available for sale on the civilian market. The Hoff Store was very well known and patronized until it burnt. I have heard stories of how touchy Halls are but they are definitely a very historically correct and underrepresented firearm in Gold Rush and post Gold Rush era living history.

-Dave

Tsalagidave · October 11, 2010, 04:22:41 PM

I brought this up with the head gunsmith at The Rifle Shoppe in Oklaholma. (Only repro manufacturer of these) and he had some interesting facts to share.

1. The gas escape is intentional. By itself, you can get off about 30 rounds before you have to clean it. He made one experimental version with a tight gas check and the mechanism stuck after the first two shots. The spacing should be wide enough to admit a sheet of writing paper. That way, the mechanism is loose enough to work properly despite the fouling from multimple discharges. It is no more dangerous than the flash from a flint lock and is out about a foot out in front of your face as opposed to a flinter.

2. He said that the breech block can be fired by hand. He used a working glove at first but said that he also fired them bare-handed. I want to assume that he decreased his powder load but I did not specify with him.

3. I was interested in getting something else he made at a higher price point but he told me to hold off until he polished off a few and made sure that they were absolutely right. Because of his honesty and existing reputation as a premium reenactment gun maker, I'm taking the plunge (about $2600 worth) and plan on ordering a Hall (Full Rifle) from him. Hey, if I wanted modern I would not be a member of this site.

I'll share my thoughts on it whenever I get the gun.

-Dave

Quote from: Hangtown Frye on February 22, 2010, 09:42:19 PM
You can, but it cuts the hell out of the palm of your hand. Ask me how I know...

BTW, here's a photo of me and my Dragoon buddies shooting our Hall's Carbines at night. They're not flintlocks, the flash at the breech is the gas escaping from the gap between the breech-block and the barrel!

Cheers!

Gordon