Suggested BP minimum load causing a ruckus on TOB

[Pukin Dog]

Boy did Manatee start a storm!   I believe its almost a force 5 hurricane now   At this point the consensus seems to be to put a statement in the Rule Book about what BP categories are all about (i.e. they are SUPPOSED to smoke, duh) and a 15gr by vol min. load.

Some of the comments are hilarious about 15gr being a "warthog" load!  Sheesh.

What do ya'all think about it?

[Mason Stillwell]

ALL I will say is that the BP cat. should smoke.I have tried using as little powder as to just barely  push the boolit out of the barrel and filler. Guess What, IT STILL SMOKES    Thats all I'll say on that.
Mason

[Calamity Jane]

I ain't much of a "old timer" in this sport but I been around long enough to see the rules grow from one skinny little book to a FAT book with three supporting volumes (RO1, RO2, and Match Director's).

As the sport grows more competative (fer some), there's more and more whining about "a level playing field" and more talk about how to slow down the top shooters. Seems to me that most of it is people who don't invest the time and money tryin to disadvantage them what do.

Seems the whole BP thang is a tempest in a tea pot. If somebody's entered in a BP category and ain't makin near as much smoke as the others in that category (at that match, under those weather conditions), it oughtta be the discression of the RO or the Match Director to move them to a smokless category. Don't see whar there's any need of a new rule or minimum load.

I'z a believer in "freedom" 'n' that means lettin everybody do it their own way. If somebody's takin unfair advantage, that oughtta be addressed then and there by the local group.

[Silver Creek Slim]

PD,
Is that 15gr in a .45 case?

Slim

[Pukin Dog]

I loaded up some 45LC with 15gr of Goex 2f to try this weekend.  Never loaded that low even in .38's so I hope the boolit gets out of the barrel.  I'll let you know how badly my wrists hurt after shooting them

I just want to see how much smoke they put out and what kind of recoil I get.  Seems some folks believe that limit is just too onerous.  I'd like to have some practical experience with that load for retorts.

[Silver Creek Slim]

I load 32-35gr in mine. I can't imagine what 15gr would be like. 

Slim

[Cuts Crooked]

Show me a standard and I will meet it! Period! Don' care iffin it's minimum load density, minimum velocity, or even minimum stench! Set it, and I will meet it and then some!

[Howdy Doody]

Well, I hope they can come up with something as a standard. I live in a part of the world that I have witnessed the very same thing that caused the whole thing to be brought up in the first place.
There just is no rule, so make one up and we can all go by it. I am all for it.
I have seen tiny loads of 777 and they smoked. Maybe not a lot, but they smoked.The  loads I have seen being shot in BP classes are something else. If they aren't just smokeless, then they have to be duplexed BP with smokeless. Let's get the ones that would take advantage of us by being able to clearly see targets and send them on back to the smokeless catagories. JMHO

[REELFOOT REGULATOR]

I guess it was bound to happen sooner or later! Seems that black powder shootin is gaining in popularity, and as long as the word COMPETITION is used people are going to figure out how to be more competetive. Myself, I'm not going to worry what the other guy is doing. just going to shoot and play my own game, and do as well as i can. But i do agree that smoke must be in the air!

Thanks Reelfoot

[Cactus Cris]

What started this was the shooter @ EOT was shooting in FC and the shooter behind him in MM was making way more smoke than he was.  Didn't actually see it but heard about it a lot in cart corral.  Don't much care what anyone else is shooting as long as he/she ain't cheating to gain an advantage, and doing it knowingly.  Been at this a long time and have seen it coming.  Everybody is getting older and when they can't compete with the young dogs, they move to another cat. to try and win.  Don't care if they come into FC-FCD-FT as long as they don't cheat and play by the established rules or new standards.
  Don't get me wrong- I like winning just as much as the next shooter, but will not stoop as low as putting 5-6 gr of 777, filler -rnd ball in a ROA and call myself a FT shooter.  I don't warthog my loads (too hard on the guns) but 24gr 2f, rnd ball, lube is not wimpy.  My only warthogs are 12ga-75-80gr 3f.  I use 16 gr 3f in my 38spl/ HB 148gr load cause that is all I can get in.
    So if 15gr is the standard- so be it.  If that load prohibits the use of 32's so be it.
Gotta have a line someplace.

[Howdy Doody]

Cactus Cris, good post. I hope something will be done concerning smoke coming from those that want to shoot the BP classes too. I'll back a standard, even though I have technically dropped out of the BP class. I am switching to gunfighter and I'll shoot the catagory in my usual smokey way. I think it will look pretty good to have both pistols out and smoking up a storm. I will relive my cowboy fantasy every time I do that. I have stopped trying to get others to join in the BP classes, but I still tout the use of the true powder. 

[Tangle Eye]

I just HAD to stir the fire a bit on this one.  Let's see if I can ruffle a few feathers.

Whether or not they come up with some sort of minimum is irrelevant to me. As Cuts Crooked says - I'll meet it to play the game.  And, like Reelfoot said, I'm doing this for fun and mostly shoot against myself and try to not make stupid mistakes and bad shots. I'm not competitive and I know it -- unless maybe when it comes to trying to outshoot Reelfoot! 

Anyway - what I think is they should outlaw all these modern heathen black powder wanna-be's.  That's right, I think it should be black powder or nothing - no Pyrodex, no 777, no this and no that.  Just black powder. If you wanna make smoke and still not have to "deal" with all the mess and fuss of black powder then shoot your 777 in a smokeless category. And - if the idea is to shoot the kind of guns our ancestors did in the way our ancestors shot them how could be do anything else?  And as far as cleanup -- if you're going to dance you got to pay the fiddler!

That's my 2 cents worth for what its worth.  If you're gonna shoot in a black powder category then use black powder - no more/no less.

[Cuts Crooked]

Tangle Eye,

I would agree with you...were it not for the stupid laws this country has foisted on us. Unfortunately there are some places where you jist cain't buy the Real Deal. My home state has become one of them, the laws concerning storeage for commercial dealers are too difficult to comply with and no one carries the stuff anymore. I can buy it in bulk and store it at my residence....for how long that will remain the case, I don't know. And truth be told, every approved BP substitute that I know of smokes in spades!

To be honest with ourselves we are going to have admit that any "rule" concerning "makin' smoke" in our sport is going to step on someones d!^k, no matter what! And we'll have to bite the bullet and face the fact that some where someone is going to be POed by whatever rule is created. So we'll just have to tell em... "tough beans, get over it or get on down the road!" That's the nature of life!

I COULD get behind a "no filler" rule though! Just BP or approved sub, nuthin else in the yer cartridges! That would mean that some folks would whine about not being able to handle the recoil, but they have the option of going to a smaller caliber...filled with BP...or moving to another catagpry.

Don' matter what ya do though, some folks will complain iffin ya hang em with a new rope!

[montanadan]

I really do not post much.I do not understand why no one protested the results at EOT(for FC),all this talk about changes to the black powder classes,will it really make a difference?No I am not trying to start anything,but I wonder if anyone will really use any of the proposed changes at any of the up coming matches(kind of like a test of the new rules?)Me ,what ever the powers to be come up with that's what I will use.My own loads are condiderably warmer than what is being proposed. I stiil do not understand why no one filed a complaint or protest at EOT,or is this another rumor? Respectfully Montanadan...

[Cheyenne]

Montana Dan, I think the reason the offensive load wasn't challenged is because it was a 'legal' load.  I have spoken with a shooter who personally knows the shooter in question, and have been told that the load used is a very light charge of 777 with the case filled with filler....the powder charge is in the 3-5 grain range!

3-5 grains of 777 just won't produce a significant amount of smoke.  The only loads questioned are the pistol loads, as it appears this shooter uses a bit more powder in his rifle and shotgun.

But, 3-5 grains in a 38 case is a ridiculously low 'gamer' load, and does give the shooter an advantage, however, since there is no standard that has to be met, this load is 'legal', even if it is stupid.

The shooter at EOT is not the only one to use such a ridiculous load, as I have seen many such loads from so-called 'Darksiders" who are thumping their chests at shooting a BP catagory, yet shooting it with a pistol load that produces less smoke than a good old fashioned Ubique load! This is a trend in the BP catagories that has many, myself included, disgusted with things the way they are.

A standard of 1cc/15grs-volume is being talked about seriously on the TG wire, and hopefully this will come to pass....if not, the BP catagories will be so diluted as to be ridiculous that I will follow Doody's lead and quit shooting BP at the higher levels and as a potential sponsor/prize donater, will not contribute to the prize pool of the growing number of all BP SASS sactioned shoots.

The downward spiral of loads used in CAS in general is silly, and this is just plain wrong and goes against what I believe is the basioc intent of the sport, but, there is not much that can be done without some kind of floor.  Since the TG's, in all their collective wisdom (yes, I'm being sarcastic!) did away with the 650fps minimum rule, the loads used across the board have been downloaded to a point that we'd be better off shooting 22 shorts, except there would be some who would find the recoil objectionable and would use CB  caps!

[Bottom Dealin Mike]

Cheyenne,

Amen to that Brother!!

[Cheyenne]

Cowboy Chronicle  August 2002  Editorial by TEX

"What is a Cowboy Load?"

    In part reads:

"Unfortunately, this debate has been fueled by SASS suppliers and sponsors looking for the best competitive edge for their users......the lightest recoiling, SASS legal ammunition that can be made.....and have managed to introduce safety issues (again) into what is already a complex and emotional debate. One of our SASS sponsor/suppliers commented years ago, if you let them, suppliers and sponsors will destroy our game by bending it to suit their commercial interests. it was one of the ammunition suppliers that originally talked SASS out of the 650 fps muzzle velocity rule because of the extreme variability in muzzle velocities possible with any given load depending upon the single action being tested.He was right, but SASS shouldn't have "caved in."If SASS had stuck to its guns and made the 650 fps rule the personal responsibility of the shooter, at least we would have had a definable minimum velocity level and some control over the present situation."

Now, Tex was writing almost three years ago about the downward spiral of smokeless loads being used for CAS.  Back then, most of us Soot boys just didn't pay much attention as a majority of us were using loads that rocked the house.  But since then, we have seen an influx of 'new' shooters to the BP catagories, who switched for reasons known only to them....smaller catagories, better chances to win, maybe? And they brought their down load/poof load thinking with them.  And why not, the catagories are usually much smaller, and what 'competition' they had were using big ol' 44's & 45's with heavy bullets and a fair amount of powder, which gave them much slower times on the pistol as they had to fight the recoil. In this editorial, TEX goes on to say that two shooters, of similar/equal skill, the one with the lighter recoiling load will win most of the time, and that's true for the BP shooters, one with a low smoke/light recoil load will usually win over the one with a heavy caliber/higher load ratio.

I have some Ten-X "Cowboy" 45 Colt smokeless ammo.....I won it and figured the brass could be loaded with real powder! ....anyway, it is marked as a CAS load, and carries a 200gr bullet.  But, it is so lightly loaded that the primers back out!  Yeah, it's a light recoiling load, why, because there is no pressure! I still have several boxes of it, and it is well over 2 years old, so I can just guess who the "ammunition supplier/sponsor" was.

The nay sayers today tout that if the 650 rule were brought back, they could load a 90gr pill in a 38 and make it with no problem.....that shows the mentality that has come into the game. 

Yes I support a BP minimum....I would also support a reinstatement of the original 650 rule, or even a bullet weight rule combined with a minimum velocity rule....as was stated above, it would be the "shooter's responsibility" to insure his/her loads met the requirement.

Sponsors are a double edged sword.....prizes are good for drawing people to your shoot, but the sponsors are not doing it out of any love for the sport....they are doing it to sell you stuff you may or may not need and to make money......too many times shooters do not see it this way. Yes, I'm thankful to the sponsors for their support, up to a point.

I worked for a number of years for one of the major sponsors, and spoke with him many times on why he did not shoot the game. Oh yeah, he and his company started several clubs in Texas, and sponsored many shoots, and set up a vendor's tent all over....but no one from the company shot....well, I did, but so what....the company head, this self-proclaimed icon of CAS didn't.

When I spoke with him, I told him the image he put forth, by all of this hoopla over how many clubs started, shoots sponsored, etc....with him not shooting, gave the impression to many that he was not really interested in the sport, but in getting as much money as possible from the participants....his response was " That's what I'm after.....their money"

My philosiphy was if you were going to buy my product (or the company's) you were going to buy it on the merit of the product itself.....but, sponsorships are a sales tool and some use this tool quite effectively. You can see this anytime a debate crops up on "who makes the best 73 replica"....the responses will name many importers, but the fact is, all the Henry, 66, & 73 rifles are made by Uberti, and there's only a price point difference between the importers! 

back to the subject at hand....sorry to have drifted a bit....we have to have a minimum in the BP catagories.....it will serve several purposes, one of which it will tend to purify the catagories somewhat as those who have to win at all costs will find a new catagory to shoot in, and it will give us the only minimum in this game.....I can see smokeless shooters being a bit nervous with this proposal as they will fear that it will lead to a SASS minimum load rule across the board, and they'll have to follow suit or move on.

I say it's time we shooters took back our game and stop letting the commercial interests dictate to us how it is played. SASS has apparently let the money talk way too much in regards to the 650 rule, and many other areas....like Tex said, we can either get hold of this now and stop the downward spiral, or we can sit back and let sponsors and suppliers destroy the game.

Now, before you all start beating on me, how long before we see "X", the 2006 WORLD'S FRONTIER CARTRIDGE CHAMPION on an add....using brand "Y" silly little light bullets and Uncle Remus' corn meal filler! You too can shoot BP with Uncle Remus' Corn Meal filler....3 grains of powder, and 15 grs of uncle Remus will put you in the winner's circle!  Just looky at the big shiney buckles you'll win! Shoot like "X", use Miss Marmalade's Dinky Bullets and Uncle Remus' Corn Meal Filler!

Yup, the BP catagories should smoke, and be the real link to what it would have been like to shoot in the 1880's. Man, just think, if Wyatt Earp and friends walked down to that lot and faced that bunch of 'Cowboys" with pistols and loads used by some of the BP shooters of today, and proceeded to shoot it out, them work hardened 'Cowboys" would probably have gotten so mad they'd have beaten the Earp party near to death with their bare hands! 

[Cuts Crooked]

And the interesting thing about all this stuff about the ammo companies...the very few commercial outfits that ARE making BP loads ain't makin' "poof" loads! They are making "full house" hide the wimmen 'n chillins' stuff! No filler in their BP cartridge ammo at all!

Given that the ammo companies were in the van concerning CAS smokless loads being toned down to the point that even 650 wasn't acceptable, I think we will be surprized at their resistance to making anything in the "BP LIGHT" range. Almost any time "filler" is mentioned to the major ammo companies, they git skittish about it. They have some concerns about using fillers in any cartridge, even though it is a proven and time honored practice with BP in the Big Bore guns for toning them down a bit.

I donno...after all the hashing and rehashing, I'm still prone to wanting to see a 650 floor FOR THE FRONTIER CARTRIDGE CATAGORIES ONLY! 650 ain't no Warthog load, even in the 45s. And it's easy to check! If it's makin' 650 but it ain't makin' smoke, then it's time to check fer duplexing! Simple! But it won't happen.

[Lou Graham]

My "big girl" guns are 44-40, loaded full-up with Goex Cowboy and topped with a MAV big lube ^(TM) boolit.  I struggle to shoot a basic 10-10-4 under a minute.  A 50-something time makes me very happy. I make it through 6 stages, but my bum arm is whinin' by the end of the day.  I love it anyway.

My "little girl" guns are .38, loaded full-up with Goex Cowboy and topped with a Snakebite big lube ^(TM) boolit. Since we did a match Sat and another one Sun this last weekend, I used the .38's.  I discovered I'm running low to mid- 30's with them.  I put as much powder in the case as I can without deforming the Snakebite.  It's a responsible load (which can be seen in the new GOTOW Winter Range article/pictures by Mr. Quigly  ) but it's certainly not overpowering or excessive.  One cc of powder is less than half of what fits in the 44-40.  It's less than I use in a .38.  It really ain't a lot.  I guess if you have trouble holding onto 1 cc of BP or sub, I'd be concerned that you are strong enough to be safe to shoot.  I thought that issue was resolved with the introduction of FC catagory.  We forget our history.  Remember when BP shooters were all Duelists?  How low can you go?  No recoil/no smoke isn't anybodys idea of BP shooting.  It don't make the crowd or the kids go "oooooh! aaahhh!"  I hope we get some kind of "floor" established before it's too late to bring this back to reasonable.

[Cheyenne]

Lou darlin', you just send them mean old hard kickin' 44's to me...I'll teach them some manners!

Funny, but it was a smokeless ammunition manufacturer who talked the WB out of the 650....650 is by no means a 'warthawg' load, and there are those who are trying to skew the argument into a warthawg take over, which it is not.  They're using this to cloud the issue, without understanding the warthawg is the guy who loves the recoil and probably won't place anyway, nor could care less.

I've shot 45's loaded with 15gr/vol and 250's, and they are a pure joy to shoot.....I've also shot them stoked with Swiss and the same 250, and they are a handful, especially in a 4 3/4" barrel!  Both are fun, the low load for the speed achecieved, and the Swiss load for the way the targets get to shaking after the first round goes off......first i thought it was the shock waves making them shake, but now I think that they were just scared!

I considered the 15 gr load to be a poof-dink, but it was more potent than many other loads I've seen used.

There has to be a minimum, otherwise we're going to lose some of our best competitors.....Doody has already given up the ghost, and I know others who are thinking "why bother" when the catagories are nothing more than glorified smokeless ones.

Cuts is right, there are no down loaded BP rounds available commercially, and I don't want to see any offered as it will serve to validate the poof-dinkers.