John Boy Here ...

[john boy]

 Am I Out of the Wood Shed? ... http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,30658.0.html I'll promise to be a kinder, gently poster if when others make a post using undefined general terms - they add the detail words to support the general words.  We all have to agree, the Darkside is a great place to share information.  But one's knowledge base cannot be maturated leaving out supporting details for general terms ... Okie Dookie?

Thought folks might find this interesting related to blackpowder bullet hardness.  I pulled a couple of bullets and tested them for their Brinell hardness ...

Bullet One:  From an old tray of PRS bullets that I had bought 2000 from a respected caster, the Bhn was 13.4
Bullet Two: From my own cast 454190's that I have been using for a year or so, the Bhn was also 13.4
This puts both these bullets that I shoot exclusively with original powder in the range of being 'hard', not soft like 1:10 or 1:20 alloys with Brinell hardness respectively of 11.5 and 10.  Bhn 13.4 is a tad harder than Lead Shot (Bhn 13) and harder than the published hardness of WW's.  I though, have over 700 pounds of WW's and the softest hardness of them is 13.2 and range to Bhn 15.4
Here's the hardness ranges:
1:20 Alloy - 10
1:10 Alloy - 11.5
WW - 12.1
Lead Shot - 13
Lyman #2 - 15

And like I said before, have never had any bore leading using these bullets with black powder in the Bhn range of 13.4 to 15.3
Now of course, your experiences may vary from mine

[Blackpowder Burn]

Welcome back.  I don't think anyone ever desired to do more than just request that we shift the tone of the discussion a little.  I find your information very useful and informative and don't want to loose your insight.  I'd just ask you to remember that all of us don't have access to all of your knowledge base, analytical capabilities, etc.

I'm new to the BP stuff - only been shooting it exclusively about a year now.  I'm learning fast (pistols, short and long range lever guns, long range BPCR) and constantly upgrading my equipment, but have a long way to go to reach the capabilities you have.  With a steep learning curve and multiple fields of experimentation, I'm sure some of my conclusions are at least somewhat based on incomplete data.  However, I have begun to achieve very satisfactory results that are repeatable.  For instance yesterday I took my Browning 1885 in 40-65 to the range and found a very nice load that will consistently provide sub-MOA accuracy.   

Thus, some of my comments (and I'm sure many others) are based on empirical evidence in the field.  Perhaps this makes our analysis incomplete, but it's not wrong.  I always appreciate insight from someone with more expertise that can provide a more thorough understanding of the situation.  Someday I'd love to have the tools, time and location to do more detailed testing , but this is not a cheap hobby and it takes time to acquire everything required to achieve your level of expertise. 

Anyway, in my rambling way "welcome back" and please continue to help us improve our knowledge as we all try to improve our abilities.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

  Am I Out of the Wood Shed? ... http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,30658.0.html I'll promise to be a kinder, gently poster if when others make a post using undefined general terms - they add the detail words to support the general words.  We all have to agree, the Darkside is a great place to share information.  But one's knowledge base cannot be maturated leaving out supporting details for general terms ... Okie Dookie?

Sounds good to me, pard!

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

   Good to see you back John Boy, you Rascal You.

 
           tEN wOLVES 

[Springfield Slim]

As for hardness of bullets, I have found that fitting the bore can be more important than hardness. And if those were my Big Lubes from 2001, they were probably harder than what I do now. I didn't have an LBT hardness tester like I have now. So now I don't have to do the "well, if I can scratch it with my fingernail it is soft enough, if I can't then it might be too hard. Let's drop it on the concrete for a final test". Althogh those tests will get you through most of the time, it is nice to have real repeatable numbers.  And I always enjoy your posts, John Boy. I don't have to always agree with someone to enjoy what they post.

[john boy]

And if those were my Big Lubes from 2001, they were probably harder than what I do now.

Slim, for the record - they were not cast by you.  And I couldn't agree with you more about the diameter of the bullet v the groove diameter of the barrel.  I use 45's exclusively:  the Ruger workhorses are throated out to 4545 - the grooves are 448 with 442 lands.  Using 454 diameter bullets - minimum blowback - good obturtion and no leading.  The '92 Winchester uses the same bullets with a 447 groove.  And thousands of bullets have gone down these tubes

Aggie - Bailey - Ten Wolves ... Thanks!

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Anytime, pard.

[Ranch 13]

  Good lord
Black powder fouling doesn't have doodly to do with bullet hardness. Matter of fact if you do some snooping around reading stuff by the old masters, they used some really hard bullets 1/14 being common, and the Lyman/Ideal manuals from not to terribly long ago recommended #2 alloy for loading blackpowder in cartridges. Even the US military used bullets that were harder than a .... well anyways they was haaaaard.
Bullet lube, bullet/bore fit , and proper pressures built by a decent quality of blackpowder will have more to do with the fouling than the hardness of the bullet.

[Springfield Slim]

Ahh...Depends on whether we are talking lead fouling or powder fouling.

[Wills Point Pete]

 I agree on the bore fit being more important. Trouble is, my four shootin' irons in .45 Colt do not have the same precise bore sizes, nor will I rebarrel them so that they do. So, the softer bullet helps there. Actually, the handguns, even with bullets harder than, well, real hard, still shoot better than I can hold. And they still clean right up.

The real reason I like the soft bullets is so when I hit the steel target the bullets just splat flat and fall down, the hard bullets tend to shatter and send fragments flying everywhere. I got a nice cut in my handsome, manly face like that, once. So, no hard bullets for me. Now, if I were to get a time machine and go hunting for T Rex, well, then maybe I'd want those hardcast bullets for deep penetration. But then, I'm fresh out of time machines.

I must have missed the contremps that John boy mentions, I have never had a problem with him. Of course, I do not go through life expecting my friends to either be perfect nor always agree with me.

[Cuts Crooked]

John Boy, You were NEVER in the woodshed as far as I am concerned!

Folks, I have long held that there are many ways to achieve the desired goals in the Darkside. Many are correct, few are wrong. Down through the years I've learned never to dismiss, out of hand, the experiance of others that may be different from mine or from what I "think I know" .

Fer instance, I tend to think of lead projectiles in terms of "Dead soft, 20-1, Wheel weight, and linotype". This works pretty good fer me most of the time. John Boy on the other hand thinks in more scientific terms, like Brinnell Hardness. Niether of us is "wrong" most of the time. Sometimes my way of thinking is easier for me to use when explaining something to others, For John Boy his way is better...... Make sense?

And yeah, I know...sometimes when someone goes all "scientific" on us, it feels like we're being talked down too. That's NOT the case with John Boy, it's just his way of explaining things in a way that's within his comfort zone. Not a problem!!! We're DARKSIDERS here and like the Marines we "Improvise, adapt, and overcome"!

Finally, John Boy and I have disagreed on some points before, and we have agreed on other things...just reality at work there. Fact is, I think of John Boy as a much valued poster and I would have to think  long and hard b'fore I would send him to the wood shed! He's a good resource and a good friend to have around!