black powder

[Missouri Half Breed]

Will black powder foule more than triple seven and what do most of you use in loading carteages. i use 38 cal in all wepons sep th scater gun of corse. ive been a member for almost a year but im changing over to the dark stuff full time. love the smoke and fire
missouri half Breed.sass 85903

[Wolfgang]

I've never used 777.   I get powder from "Powder Incorpurated".  Shipped to my door by UPS.  5 lbs at a time.   Have tried using 3f and 1f as well as 2f . . . but last order just got all 2f Goex.  Use it for everything.  If yur shooting .38 may might want to use 3f.  Some prefer 1f for shotgun just for more Boom and Smoke that way.   

SMOKE AND FIRE . . . the way to go . . . . 

Clean up is easy.   I prefer "Weazil Piss".   Others prefer "Moose Milk" or "Mule Snot".   To each his own.   

[Wolfgang]

Almost furgot . . . . how to collect weasil piss . . . .

Figured you might need to know . . . .


Ok . . I followed the good advise from those other "soot lords" here on the and gave "Wheesil Whiz" a try.   It works good.  But, . . . then Wheesils is slippery fast little devils and catching one was quite a chore.   I thought the worst was over when I had a firm grip on him, . . . . . but, . . holding him down while I pried his mouth open and got the funnel in wasn't any easier.   After the first two bottles of beer inserted into the upper end of his elementary canal he began to produce the desired product.  And by the third bottle things got much easier as he'd discovered that he like the stuff I was pouring into his gullet.  Now he can't get enough of it.  He turns up his nose at domestic beer and will only drink good imported stuff, . . . British and French are Ok with him but is preference is for German brews.  The end product is being pumped out at a great rate.  I have considered getting a bottling set up and marketing it . . . . but unfortunately the marketing of "cottage ( ie. garage ) produced products" on the SASS wire has been banned.  You'll just have to catch yur own Wheesil . . . .

If'n ya want to do it "easy way" with the artificial "Wheesil Whiz" ya just mix equal parts Murphy's Oil soap, Hydrogen Perozide, and rubbing alcohol, . . . works good, . . . just not quite as exotic as using genuine "Wheezil Whiz" . . . 

[Missouri Half Breed]

Sounds like a story the marshall would tell me. you know i shot 51s for a loat of yrs and never used greas or wak wads after mor than a 1000 round never had a duble discharge but i always used 36 cal . my buddys using 44 cal had to use pads or greas du to just that problem i noe have 51 conv, and a 357 thunder . and i just dint think im fast enuff to catch that dam weseal. thanks for the info and the laguff
may all you plings be fowlled by dings
half breed.

[Dirty Brass]

I use both, and would say BP is a little more fouling, but not excessively. Both clean up easy, and T7 is much less corrosive if that matters to you.....oh, and all my bullets are SPG type lubed, beeswax and cricso or beeswax and talow mix...I don't know if it matters with the T7 loads, but it is what I load mine with.

No flames tho with T7 - I miss that!  

[Blackpowder Burn]

Fouling is greatly dependent on the type of bullet and lube you use on the bullet, as well as the powder.  For instance, if you try to use black powder with a hard cast bullet with standard smokeless powder lubes - you're in for a nasty and difficult to clean mess.  The key is to use soft bullets (20:1 lead to tin or even softer) with a proper soft black powder lube.  If you do that, the bullet will obturate and completely seal the bore, which prevents leading.  The soft lube keeps the fouling soft and very easy to clean out.

The best I've found is to use a Big Lube bullet from Dick Dastardly (see the link to his website on this forum) with his Pearl Lube II.    Since I've switched to that, I can shoot an entire weekend match (12 stages) without touching my guns (44 WCF's and 45 LC's).  I clean them at the end of the weekend and it takes only a few patches per gun along with a pass with a bore snake.

His 38 caliber 158 grain "Snakebite" bullet should be ideal for your use.  If you don't cast bullets, you can buy them cast and lubed from Mark Whyte at the following link - http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/

I use Moose Milk for everything with excellent success (10:1 water and Ballistol).

[Steel Horse Bailey]

What Aggie says is right on!

One of my hardest-learned lessons is that BP and hard-cast bullets DON'T MIX !!  I DID discover a method that allows hard-cast boolits to be used, but it's a LOT of trouble and is only a make-do solution.  It's OK for pistols, but marginal for rifles.   Stick with soft boolits - and BigLube (tm)designs with Wholly Black and you'll do FINE!

[john boy]

One of my hardest-learned lessons is that BP and hard-cast bullets DON'T MIX !! ... It's OK for pistols, but marginal for rifles.

Bailey, if the above be the case, please explain to me how the ragged hole could have happened on this 100yd target, made with 14 of 25 shots ... and the powder was Goex Cartridge and the bullets were cast from Bhn 15.3 Wheel Weights with a 1/2 % of Sn?

5.

Also, of the multiple number of thousands of black powder rounds I've shot in CAS (revolvers and rifles) - all the bullets have been cast with straight Wheel Weights in the Bhn range of 13.5 to 15.8!  For support that this combination works for CAS - have my Order of the Golden Bullet, with Star for a clean 2 day match and finally won the 100yd Speed Lever Rifle match this year at our State Shoot

Might ask in parting ... what is your definition of soft or hard-cast bullets?  The words are have no meaning unless one puts a Brinell rating to the broad range of hardness (5.0=pure lead to 22 for linotype)

[Blackpowder Burn]

John Boy,

With properly sized bullets and black powder lubes, I'm quite sure harder bullets can be used.  However, I'll still wager that the guns need to be cleaned more frequently.  I started that way and worked my way to where I am now - and all along the way I found the guns to stay cleaner and run longer with softer bullets and lubes.  An no, I don't have a Brinnel hardness tester, but I can tell the difference between a 20:1 and a commercial hard cast.  Typical 20:1 is about BHN 10 according to the literature available on the web.

I might also ask in parting - do you have to work to be abrasive, or is it a natural talent?

[john boy]

Aggie, let me start from the bottom up ... yes, I have to work to be abrasive - only when Internet facts are put forth that are stated to be some kind of a 'Golden Rule' and are contrary to internal ballistics and evidenced by shooting experience with thousands of reloads.  There's an old saying, If you don't know how to play the game, stay in the dugout

And no, my main match revolvers and rifles need no special cleaning or have to be cleaned anymore frequently than I normally do shooting WW's and black powder.  And trust me, I look in the bores for any signs of leading that may have been missed during the normal cleaning ... with a bore scope!  I have not found any leading while cleaning and with the bore scope shooting my CAS firearms with BP and WW's

Aggie, leading occurs based on 3 factors:
*  Excessive ignition pressure of the loaded round
*  The bullet not obturating in the bore which causes gas to strip lead at the base of the bullet.  Best case example is a bullet smaller than groove diameter that is loaded with an excessive or wrong powder charge
*  Lube starvation
Control all 3 of these factors and one will not have leading.
To determine if ones powder charge and the bullet Bhn is relatively correct, the formula is ... Bhn x 1440 = Maximum pressure
Give this article a read ... http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCBAlloyObturation.htm

[hellgate]

Half Breed,
I shoot Frontiersman so I use BP in the revolvers and the shotgun. However, I use .357 cal in the rifle. I would agree that the Snakebite bullet is the best BP bullet out there for the 38SPL. I do not use it only because it would not reliably feed in my Reooi 92s. and I am too cheap to buy a different pait of rifles. I was able to get a BP load that would shoot all day with out fouling the guns but it shot 5" patterns at 50 yds. I was also able to get a load that would shoot into 1.5" @50yds but required a wet swab "pull through" between stages that got black tarry fouling all over my sleeves. Sdo I have gone to the various subs for the 357 (same for the 38SPL). I like 777 as it is  more powerful than BP, I can shoot the various smokeless lubed bullets, and cleanup is easy with water and a little detergent or soap like  with BP. The 777 smokes a little more than BP but hits harder. There's no "BOOM" like BP. I can run it through my Dillon SDB. In summary, use the Snakebite (hand cast with BP lube) bullet for BP or use whatever you want with the 777.

[Missouri Half Breed]

Thanks to all that have replied to my ? im taking it, all in the snake bit sound like the way to go, although at the time being Missouri  Marshall is loading all my amo, ill start loading my own soon as he visits in april and shows me the rops hes my youngr brother but in the case of loading he has a lot and i do meen a lot more experince than i have. for a youner brother hes kind of my hreo, he is what a cowboy is suposed to be and lives by the code (dont tell him i said so we wouldent want his hed to swell ) but all kidding aside he a wonderfull frend and a good brother, i would not be where im at in sass if it wasent for him,Ps you people with SASS are ina leag of your own and im proud to be a part of it ive yet to get to shoot my first match caus i work fr,sat,sun and monday so i soot by my self but trying to do it the SASS way.
So to a great bunch of guys THANKS and Happy trails
the Missouri Half Breed

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Aggie, let me start from the bottom up ... yes, I have to work to be abrasive - only when Internet facts are put forth that are stated to be some kind of a 'Golden Rule' and are contrary to internal ballistics and evidenced by shooting experience with thousands of reloads.  There's an old saying, If you don't know how to play the game, stay in the dugout

And no, my main match revolvers and rifles need no special cleaning or have to be cleaned anymore frequently than I normally do shooting WW's and black powder.  And trust me, I look in the bores for any signs of leading that may have been missed during the normal cleaning ... with a bore scope!  I have not found any leading while cleaning and with the bore scope shooting my CAS firearms with BP and WW's

Aggie, leading occurs based on 3 factors:
*  Excessive ignition pressure of the loaded round
*  The bullet not obturating in the bore which causes gas to strip lead at the base of the bullet.  Best case example is a bullet smaller than groove diameter that is loaded with an excessive or wrong powder charge
*  Lube starvation
Control all 3 of these factors and one will not have leading.
To determine if ones powder charge and the bullet Bhn is relatively correct, the formula is ... Bhn x 1440 = Maximum pressure
Give this article a read ... http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCBAlloyObturation.htm

Well.

I'll try NOT to be abrasive ... as you seem to enjoy.  (OK, that was my stab at abrasive.)

JohnBoy, I guess you think I'm some kind of newbie, even 'tho you were kind enough to NOT come right out and say I'm full of sh ... stuff.  I certainly have respect for your knowledge of ballistics as shown on this and other boards for many years.  I doubt I've got YOUR technical experience, but I DO have a little.

I certainly don't have your scientific knowledge, only my experience of about 40 years shooting BP (mostly C&B) and about the same time shooting, both privately and military.  I've probably only shot a million or so rounds, and 2/3rd of them thanks to taxpayer's money.   (How?  I was in a special unit, the United States Army and Armor Engineer Board; we tested all kinds of Army equipment that would be used in or in conjunction with armored vehicles.  The weapons started at 22 LR caliber and finished at 120 mm.)

I've said this because I don't feel that I'm an expert putting forth Internet "Golden Rules," but I DO have experience with both shooting AND thousands of reloaded rounds.

Enough of my hurt feelings. 

Re: fouling.  While I said that BP and Hard Cast bullets don't work ... and I apologize for not adding "for ME," you overlooked one VERY important detail.  Nowhere did I say anything about leading.  The bullets I used were a lot of 1000 Valiant brand bullets with blue lube.  The Brinell # was about 17-18, harder than the BigLube boolits I now cast and use ... (with no leading OR fouling.)

I also apologize for omitting the fact that the lack of lube (lube starvation) is probably what caused my woes, BUT, I still had problems AFTER I figured out that lube starvation was likely the problem that caused me to miss rifle targets at 20-25 feet!  I still don't know why that is, but the BigLube boolits solved all my issues.  Since most of us have learned the secret of using enough lube with ANY bullet shot with BP, I should have explained more fully, but I didn't feel like sitting here typing half a book in explanation.  My side still hurts from my partial nephrectomy 7 weeks ago so I just stated my working opinion, rather than stay in pain. (Part of my R. kidney was removed due to cancer - probably from all the BP smoke I've inhaled over the years.  I don't smoke tobacco or hang with many who do.  The last part [in italics] is a joke - about the cause, not the part about my kidney.)



Hard-cast bullets (storebought like I used) generally have hard "crayon" lube, * suitable for use with smokeless powders, NOT Black Powder.  (The last part, after the * is my opinion, based on use.)

ENOUGH Lube is the best way to use bullets (of any type) with BP.  Can we agree?


FACT:  You didn't have to bite my head off, John Boy; I'm NOT wrong, I just didn't explain my position well enough.  For you.


By the way, congratulations on your OGB w/ star (I only have one OGB ...that I've reported) and your win in the 100 yd Lever Shoot.

[Blackpowder Burn]

+100 what Steel Horse said.  We're all saying the same thing with minor variations - a bullet properly sized to fill the bore and lots of a soft lube.

John Boy, I fully recognize that you have a great wealth of technical knowledge and are a tremendous source of information.  My point is that the tone of many of your replies here are such that it is difficult to read them with objectivity.  And that's all I'll say on the subject, as I know this forum is not meant for personal quarrels.

[Noz]

Boy, I wish I knew everything!

[Dick Dastardly]

Yes John Boy, those are three of the factors that can lead to barrel leading.  But, there are others also.  The list is NOT limited to the number Three.

A badly pitted bore will lead easier.  Make that number Four.  Also, a rough bore will lead easier (as in some clones I've seen).  Make that number Five.  Then, there bores that are not a consistent diameter.  Make that number Six.  There are pistols that have undersize chambers compared to their bore sizes.  Make that number Seven on the list.

That list can go on, but you get the idea.

In some of the situations listed, bullet hardness can and does make a difference in barrel leading.  So does using a proper bullet and adequate lube.  Let's agree that we're talkin' black powder here.

So, although controlling the three issues you listed is important as pertains to barrel leading, they aren't the only issues that have to be considered by any means.

DD-DLoS

[Springfield Slim]

John Boy: Nice pattern(on the first 5). Too bad the rest of them went all over the target. In spite of using a lubed felt wad(note on YOUR target). 

[john boy]

Slim, Harry Pope and Dr Hudson used felt for their reloads.  They being some of the best marksmen at the turn of the century, I figured felt can't be all that bad of a wad.  I also use cork for my BPCR reloads 

[44caliberkid]

I'll add an amen for the Snakebite Greese Wagon bullet.  You don't need wads or fillers, just fill the case up with BP to about 3/16 of an inch from the top, seat the bullet and you're done.  Clean up with soap and water in two or three patches.  It's easier to clean than smokeless.    Once you are into it, black powder loading is the simplest kind of shooting there is.

[Delmonico]

I use a lubed felt wad samwhiched between to thin waxed cardboard wads in my BPCR and it works better than anything else I tried.