A 'historic incorrect' feature with Shiloh Sharps ?

[Marshal Deadwood]

A friend who is a single shot shotter (rollers and trapdoors) says he does not like Shiloh Sharps, because the lock is positioned wrong and causes the rifles to have too thick of a wrist,,,in comparison to original Sharps rifles. Is this so ? I thought Shiloh's were pretty much the best 'reproduction' of a Sharps one could get.

MD

[ndnchf]

With minor fitting, Shiloh claims their 1874 rilfe parts are interchangeable with originals.    I have a Shiloh and from what I can tell, I would agree.  You coul e-mail Shiloh and ask.

[Buck Stinson]

First of all, you can't take a comparative measurement between an original and a repro down near the end of the tangs, because there is simply too much movement at that spot.  This measurment will change dramically, just by loosening or tightening the tang screws.   I just put a mic on both my original 1874 Sharps and my 15 year old Shiloh at the spot where the set tigger adjustment screw goes into the trigger plate.   Outside to outside measurment from the top tang to the bottom of the trigger plate is 1.777 on my original '74 Sharps and 1.756 on my Shiloh.    Considering the fact that both firearms were polished by hand at the time they were finished, this is about as close as you can get for guns that were made nearly 120 years apart.   

[Marshal Deadwood]

Buck, thank youi. Sometimes, folks will 'sour apple' anything they do not suscribe to,,,and I think that is the case here.  I'd love to have a Shiloh 'Business Rifle' with 28" round barrel.

A question concerning that,,,,were any of Sharps Co,'s  'Business Rifles' chambered in 50-70 ?

MD

[Blackpowder Burn]

MD,

Funny you should ask that - I just purchased a copy of Frank Sellers book "Sharps Firearms".  On page 235 he states about the Model 1874 Business Rifle:

"Three calibers were standard.  The "Business 40" was 40/70 2-1/4-inch BN until March, 1878 and 40/65 2-1/2 inch Straight thereafter.  The "Business 45" was 45/70 2.1-inch Straight.  Approximately 900 "Business 45's" were made and 700 "Business 40's".  Six 50-caliber Business rifles were also made.

It appears Sharps did make a few 50's, but he doesn't say (and probably doesn't know) whether they were 50/70's or 50/90's.

Hope this helps.

[Ranch 13]

 Sharps made rifles in both the 50's.

You can go to Cornell Publishing and get copies of all the old Sharps catalogs. Lots of good information contained in those.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Yep, Sharps made rifles in virtually every caliber available back then.  The question, though, was whether the model sold as the "Business Rifle" in particular was made in 50-70.  It was a plain Jane version and had a very limited selection of calibers.

I would think the odds are high that at least one of the 6 Business Calibers manufactured in 50 caliber were chambered for the 50-70, but the 50 caliber was not a common chambering for that model.

[Ranch 13]

 The answer is still the same. Yes they did. Both cartridges.
At the end of their days they only offered the 45 calibers as standard, but the 40's, 44's and 50's were still available as special order.
All of Sharps's rifles were basic models, you only got the extra's when you ordered and paid for them.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Ranch,

I think we're debating apples versus kumquats here.  I'm sure you are absolutely correct, in that Sharps would manufacture any of their rifle models in any caliber you want, if you were willing to pay for it.  My point was only in referring to actual manufacturing records as researched by Frank Sellers, and what was actually built.  According to production records, there were only 6 50-caliber rifles built, but the specific chambering (50-70 or 50-90) was not specified.

I think the bottom line is that if MD ordered a Shiloh Business Rifle model today and had it chambered in 50-70, he would be historically accurate.

[Ranch 13]

  If you say so Agnes.

[sharps50/70]

A gun shop in Ohio has an original round barrel business Sharps in 50 caliber.  Displayed with it is a 50/90 cartridge but you can't tell if the cartridge actually fits the gun.  Sharps many times just marked their barrels with Cal 50.
Rich

[Ranch 13]

 The last Sharps catalog lists the round barrel as the standard on both the borchardt and the 74.

[Buck Stinson]

Same thing with Winchester.  The round barrel was standard on all rifles and even though the octagon barrel was more expensive, it was far more popular.  Even today, most collectors would prefer an octagon barrel over round.

[Ranch 13]

 Another interesting tidbit on Sharps. They would on request send out to their dealers extra barrels. There are examples of rifles that left the factory chambered in one cartridge but today actually are something all together different, but still wearing a Sharps marked barrel properly marked to the current chamber.

[Buck Stinson]

Most gun companies of the period would sell and ship spare parts to gunshops or individuals.  The problem with barrels was that manufacturers like Sharps, Winchester, etc., would not warrant a firearm, if a new barrel was fitted outside the factory.  The only exception was if the new barrel was installed by an authorized dealer for that particular firearm.  Many Sharps sporting rifles with serial numbers falling within the 1872 and 1877 range, are now a different caliber than when they left the factory.  Much of this is due to the fact that buffalo hunters simply shot these guns until the bores were gone.  It was much cheaper and easier to have a new barrel installed, than to buy another gun.  Many barrels were also rebored to larger calibers by some very competant frontier gunsmiths.  About 23 years ago, I had an 1874 military Sharps rifle that was marked Freund on top of the barrel just forward of the reciever ring.  This gun also had a modified Freund More Light front sight blade.  The overall condition was very nice, showing good traces of case color on the frame, very nice wood and traces of bright blue along the barrel.  However, the minute you looked down the bore, you could tell it had killed more than it's share of buffalo, because the bore was almost smooth.  Only traces of the rifling remained.  The only way this is possible is if the gun had fired thousands of rounds of ammunition.   As with many guns I've owned, this one eventually went down the road to make room for more 1876 model Winchesters.  The Sharps still sits in the collection it went to when I sold it nearly 15 years ago.

[Grogan]

Ranch,

I think the bottom line is that if MD ordered a Shiloh Business Rifle model today and had it chambered in 50-70, he would be historically accurate.

Yes, and seeing as he wants a 28" Business Rifle, I think he'd be much happier getting it in .50-70 than the bigger ctg.

Being the happy owner of a 16# "Big 50", I think that I can honestly state that anything much lighter WOULDN'T be fun to shoot very much!

My 2 Cents

[Blackpowder Burn]

I've just come into possession of an 1868 (1869?) Sharps conversion carbine chambered for 50-70.  To my surprise, the carbine is actually rather pleasant to shoot.  Not at all the shoulder bruiser I expected.

However, I would not like to shoot it in extended strings.  I'll stick with my 12# 40-65 for that!