Original Spencer & Sharps join my collection

[El Tigre]

Two day's ago I received a call from my shooting club that one member died and his widow wants to sell the gun collection which consist of original US-Rifles, pistols and some WWII 98-K. Because I am interested in US-Rifles like Sharps and Spencer I arranged a meeting for today.  With zero budget I go in and with zero minus...I go out because I bought a Spencer Rifle and a Sharps Carbine.

In reality I do not know much about Serial# and production year. I do not know much about history behind the weapons. The only what  I know is that it may not a mistake to pay 50 % of an appropriate replica price for an original one.
That is what I did.

Can somebody help me to get more information of the Spencer Rifle ?
I am interested to know the production year, was it used during civil war ? How much were produced ?
It would be very helpful for me to get such information because I want to know more about the Rifle in my collection.

Serial# is 100563 ,Stamps are visible in pictures. The 56-50 case fits in  the chamber but the rifle has no centre fire pin, its rim fire.

The Sharps  has the serial# 66620, Model 1859.
The Rear Sight it is stamped with " R S.LAWRENCE Patented  FEB 1859"
On the left Side it is stamped " C.Sharps PAT.  SEPT. 12 TH 1846"
On the right side it is stamped with " C.Sharps' PAT. OCT.5TH 1852"
And "R.S. LAWRENCE PAT APRIL 12TH 1859"

The Barrel is stamped with "Model 1859"
Thanks for your feedback

El Tigre

[DJ]

Your Spencer is the last model produced, ca 1867-68, after the war.  The model 1860 was the wartime model, then the Model 1865 right at the end of the war, followed by the Model 1867 and then the New Model.  There were about 20,000 M1860 rifles.  Numbers for the other models are a little unclear--probably at most a few thousand each of the M1865, M1867, and NM.  All were rimfire, the latter three chambered for .56-50.

If you paid half the cost of a new repro, your conscience may require you to do a few nice things for that widow lady to kind of even things out.

[.56/50 Iron]

Good Morning! 
     Congratulations on the two rifles! The price was certainly generous on the part of the seller and the best thing is that both of these rifles will continue to be preserved and maybe occassionally used. I would start to look for a centerfire breech block for the Spencer. Fitting the block does not sound like too much of a project and someone here can certainly help you over any rough spots. The Model 59 may well have been used during the war. I have a replica of this one. There are times I have purchased something with a zero budjet. It only bothers you for awhile... How is the bore condition of both of these? That would be the heart of the matter for me. Thanks for letting us view these.
.56/50 Iron

[El Tigre]

Good Morning! 
     Congratulations on the two rifles! The price was certainly generous on the part of the seller and the best thing is that both of these rifles will continue to be preserved and maybe occassionally used. I would start to look for a centerfire breech block for the Spencer. Fitting the block does not sound like too much of a project and someone here can certainly help you over any rough spots. The Model 59 may well have been used during the war. I have a replica of this one. There are times I have purchased something with a zero budjet. It only bothers you for awhile... How is the bore condition of both of these? That would be the heart of the matter for me. Thanks for letting us view these.
.56/50 Iron

Thanks 56/50 and DJ,

yes, I offered my help to the widow. Help to sell the 98 K from IIWW. I am not interested to have such kind of rifles and the family did know what rifles they have !!
So there is still a Trapdoor rifle and an original Gallager available. I will call tomorrow to ask also for both rifles. The Gallager must be reworked because if I close the action I have the feeling that there is to much play. I have a replica from ERMA, a German company which is not existing any more but they made real good replicas from the Gallager.

The Spencer and the Sharps are in real good condition. The Sharps is excellent, ready for use w/o any  rust. The stock is excellent too. At the time I saw it this morning I thought to have a replica in front of me, but it is an original Sharps in 50-70 I think.

The Spencer is also in an excellent condition but the butt stock has a crack. I saw it on Spencers offered at gunbroker. The crack is only on the outside surface and seams to be a general problem of the Spencer.
The action works very well, the barrel is also excellent, ready for target shooting.

Where can I order the Center Fire Breech block ? From Armi Sport or Buffalo Arms ?
I will be in Oklahoma from 1 till 9 of April. Maybe I can take it there.

I have already a replica from Armi Sport and I am very satisfied.
See http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,28223.0.html

But my intention is to use the old rifles too.

In Germany you have to pay approx 1380 Euro for an Spencer Rifle from Armi Sport.
I paid 1500 Euros for both, the Spencer and the Sharps.
This cost motivates me to buy them, doesn't matter if I have the money or not.
I remember the time when I was a student. I had no money and found a Browning 1886, price was 1700 German Mark = 850 Euro. This was in 1984. My budget was below zero but I bought it because it was and is a nice rifle. I never regret this purchase.

El Tigre   

[Herbert]

that is the best buy i have seen for a long time,the spencer should have a spencer cutoff,though i can not tell from your photos,it is the swivel bit on the wide cartrige guide ,this rifle will outshoot the armi sports rifle by a long way,as well as a centerfier breachblock you will need a .520 bullet mould as the groove diameter in the originals is yously aroud that,buffalow arms sells theseas well as centerfire breachblock,S&S also sells the block,is the extractor the short blead type or the lane type

[DJ]

El Tigre--
Prices for Spencer long rifles usually run about $2500.  Sometimes you see them as low as $2000, but almost never lower than that.  Yours rifle has the Spencer cutoff--the cartridge guide that lies on top of the breechblock can pivot very slightly to the side--it is just enough to keep the breechblock from opening all the way so you can use it as a single-loader.  It should also have a spring-loaded Lane extractor, which may allow you to use Starline Spencer cases.

Do you have photos of the Sharps?  Has it been converted from percussion to cartridge?  From the serial number (and the fact it a NM1859) it is almost certainly Civil War production, since the M1859s began to be superseded in production by the M1863 model in, would you believe, 1863?

Anyway, I hope you are being very very nice to your new widow friend--she deserves it.

[El Tigre]

El Tigre--
Prices for Spencer long rifles usually run about $2500.  Sometimes you see them as low as $2000, but almost never lower than that.  Yours rifle has the Spencer cutoff--the cartridge guide that lies on top of the breechblock can pivot very slightly to the side--it is just enough to keep the breechblock from opening all the way so you can use it as a single-loader.  It should also have a spring-loaded Lane extractor, which may allow you to use Starline Spencer cases.

Do you have photos of the Sharps?  Has it been converted from percussion to cartridge?  From the serial number (and the fact it a NM1859) it is almost certainly Civil War production, since the M1859s began to be superseded in production by the M1863 model in, would you believe, 1863?

Anyway, I hope you are being very very nice to your new widow friend--she deserves it.

All,

thanks very much for your feedback.
Below some picures from the Sharps. I will add more today, also from the Spencer

[Herbert]

feed  a few 56-50 cartriges trough your original if it extracts all right you will notice feeding is a lot smoother with the original,copy the profile of the original cam to make your AS spencer work as well ,would you be able to measure the twist rate of your original ,i am trying to find out if the twist rate varied with difrent models of spencers

[El Tigre]

feed  a few 56-50 cartriges trough your original if it extracts all right you will notice feeding is a lot smoother with the original,copy the profile of the original cam to make your AS spencer work as well ,would you be able to measure the twist rate of your original ,i am trying to find out if the twist rate varied with difrent models of spencers

Herbert,
I put 5 cartriges in the magazine and you are absolutely right. It feeds and extracts much more smoother than the Armi Sport Spencer. I can move the action slowly and the bullet will match to the chamber by 100 %.
The twist I will measure on weekend.

El Tigre

[El Tigre]

that is the best buy i have seen for a long time,the spencer should have a spencer cutoff,though i can not tell from your photos,it is the swivel bit on the wide cartrige guide ,this rifle will outshoot the armi sports rifle by a long way,as well as a centerfier breachblock you will need a .520 bullet mould as the groove diameter in the originals is yously aroud that,buffalow arms sells theseas well as centerfire breachblock,S&S also sells the block,is the extractor the short blead type or the lane type

Herbert,

Buffalo if offering 56-50 brass for original Spencer's. Do I need his or can I use my Starline brass which I am using for the Armi Sport ?

El Tigre

[Herbert]

i youse starline brass in my original and it works well others have reported that starline brass will not funtion in original spencers you would have to try it to make sure ,if it is extracting with unfierd cartriges it will extract with anealled starline cases if yours is fited with the lane type extractor starline cases will defintly  work

[Perry Owens]

El Tigre,
Buffalo Arms will not ship brass to Europe any more because it is illegal to export ammunition components from the US without an export permit, which costs $250. Their 56-50 brass for original Spencers is made from cut-down Starline 50-70 brass, with the rim turned down slightly. I recently converted an 1865 Spencer to centre fire. I use cut-down Starline 50-70s and find that they chamber and extract ok in my Spencer without need for rim turning. I am sure you can get 50-70 brass in Germany but if not you can get it here in the UK.

[Trailrider]

Howdy, Pard,
Your Sharps is, indeed, a cartridge conversion M1869, cal. .50-70 Gov't.  The conversions were done to both M1859 and M1863 percussion models.  (In fact, the only difference between the two is the year marking.  The 1859 stamping die broke, and since this happened in 1863, they just made up a new date stamp.  Some of the 1859's originally had coffee grinders inletted into the buttstock!    I recall a few of the 1863's did, too.  Not sure if any were retained when the carbines were converted to metallic cartridge.  The barrel may or may not have been relined to .515".  If the groove diameter of the original barrels was LESS than .525", they were NOT lined.  If the barrels exceeded .525", the barrels were bored out and a 3-land/3-groove liners inserted, brazed in, and chambered for the .50-70 (aka .50-1-3/4") cartridge.  Carbines had 22-inch barrels.

Does the wood have any names or initials carved or stamped in it?  If so, it may have been one of a few issued to civilian employees of the U.S. Army Quartermaster Dept.  If not, then it was probably issued to one of the 10 cavalry units around 1870.  The Sharps was replaced by the .45-70 Trapdoor Springfield in 1874 (date of initial issue).

Hope this is of some help.