Info on Original Sharps I Just Acquired

[Blackpowder Burn]

I have just acquired an original Sharps carbine by way of a semi-permanent loan.  I'm looking for any information that any of you gents that are knowledgeable on these guns can give me.  Please see the attached photos.

The pertinent details are as follows:
1.  Caliber 50-70
2.  Bore has light pitting but is shiny and rifling is prominent
3. 3 groove rifling
4. Barrel length 22"
5. Very few markings on the rifle.
     a.  Serial number 91047
     b.  Just above hammer attachment screw is:
            "R. S. Lawrence Pat."
            "April 12TH 1859"
     c.  Just below hammer attachmend screw is:
            "C. Sharps Pat."
            "Oct. 5TH 1852"

6. The is a one-line script between the rear sight and the receiver that is unreadable.  It appears to be two words followed 
    by the date 1863.

The owner says he was told this rifle had been converted from the 50 Sharps rimfire cartridge to fire the 50-70 centerfire.  There are no markings on the rifle indicating the chambering.

The rifle is mechanically sound.  In fact I fired it today with some 50-70 BP ammunition loaded for it.  I intend to develop a load for it with proper BP ammunition.

Thanks in advance for your input.

[Blackpowder Burn]

A little searching on another forum would seem to indicate that this was an early conversion rifle that has the R. S. Lawrence pellet priming system.  I think this is shown in the photo below immediately under the hammer.

[James Hunt]

Congratulations, you appear to have a Sharps 1868 conversion carbine. Seller's and Dorsey provide excellent information on this gun in their writings - Seller's book is considered the Bible on all Sharps Production and it is well worth the price.

.50 rimfire? I don't know about that. Apparently early in the civil war there was an attempt to convert the Sharps to a metallic cartridge and they did some work with a .56 rimfire - but nothing came of it. As to the pellet priming system, didn't all of these later Sharps carbines have that? Mine carbine has the remnants of it still seen.

Following the war they worked on converting the later model Sharps to the .50 gvt cartridge of the period (the early slant breech models were found not to be suitable). By the end of 67 they had produced about 1900 carbines using a firing pin spring mechanism. Some of these carbines also had their bores relined as the original bore size was in excess of .52 using the paper cartridge of the period. But by 1868 the conversions were being done with a cam retracted firing pins and the bores universally relined. Other parts were also replaced as needed. There were about 28,000 1868 conversion carbines made.

Many of the guns reportedly survived with excellent bores. I know mine looks like it just came out of the factory. This is because apparently the carbines were not well received by the troops. Those little troopers didn't like the recoil of the .50 in the carbine, the guns showed obvious CW wear and were interpreted as hand me downs according to Dorsey, and finally there was a problem with fouling gumming up the breech block with multiple shots, an issue in combat where Dorsey reports you find carbines where the breach has multiple marks on it where the troopers literally were banging on it with something to drop the block.

Having said all that, you got a piece of history - both CW and perhaps frontier use (although there is no guarantee the units of the 7th which were issued it were all stationed in the south for reconstruction purposes). But the carbine was reportedly issued to second line troops thru the mid 1870's.

In shooting mine I use the standard military load with 450 grain grease groove bullet sized .515 and it falls right in the chamber even after 20 rounds. I do not find recoil bad, but I weigh a tad more than the trooper of the period. The issue Lawrence sights are less than what we are used to today, and mine at its lowest setting shoots about 9 inches high at 100 yards. But it shoots like a champ. Since you have already used yours we can avoid any of that safety nonsense about shooting old guns. Fire away all the time wondering about who was using it before you!

Below is my carbine:

[Blackpowder Burn]

James,

Thanks for the information.  I am completely new to Sharps rifles, having only a new production Browning High Wall for CAS long range.  A friend drug this rifle out of the closet when he found out I was interested in such stuff.

I'll try to track down a copy of the Seller's and Dorsey book you mentioned to research it further.  However, if I understand your comments, this is likely a civil war percussion Sharps that was converted to 50-70 (50 Government) and the barrel was likely relined during the process.  The relining is not visible now, but it could well be so.

At any rate, it is a neat old rifle.  Like you, I don't find the recoil objectionable at all.

Would you mind sharing the load data for your ammo?  I wanted to slug the bore, but haven't yet found a bullet or slug of the proper diameter.  I'll order some of the 0.515 bullets from Buffalo Arms to try initially. 

[James Hunt]

It appears from your images that you do have the cam retracted firing pin, and if so the bore has been relined, I believe the three groove rifling is an indicator of that. Hence an 1868 conversion carbine. It is likely the model 1863 carbine. To be honest I can not really see that mine is relined - perhaps that is because I am no gunsmith or a comment on their skill from the period.

These guns are not uncommon, as I seen them at antique gun shows regularly. The current price for a reasonable one with a decent bore seems to be $1500 on up. A minty one goes well over $2000. So, take care of it.

As far as reloading data, I also use the bullet from buffalo arms which is a 450 grain bullet sized .515. I would not worry about slugging the barrel in this old gun. I mean you are not going to be using it to drop chickens at 200 meters. These soft bullets (20-1) will bump up and give you acceptable 100 yard accuracy - interesting that the sights were adjusted for 800 yards which seems optimistic to me as I have trouble using the tiny Lawrence rear sight at 100 yards.

Dave from Buffalo Arms told me he had one with an unlined bore that he could almost drop a .515 down it and hear it rattle to the far end - yet got acceptable hunting accuracy out of it. I would bet this little carbine would do good service as a woods gun on deer, even bear.

For powder I just stuff as much as I can into a .50 shell. Since I am using 2f Goex I use pretty stiff compression - about .3 inch and that means I can get about 64 grains in using a 24 inch drop tube. Again, the bullet literally falls into the bore even when I have shot as much as 20 rounds thru it. But accuracy seems to be about a 6 - 8 inch group, now that is using the Lawrence sight - I bet it would be much better with younger eyes and better sights, and the fact that it shoots 9 inches high. With better conditions I bet it would get down to 4 inches. No wonder they killed so few hostiles with the thing.

I didn't mean to kid around about the safety issue in these old guns, the breech block should lock up fairly tight with the shell chambered and should show no signs of stress when fired, no primer back-out, etc. But having said that I shoot a lot of old guns and have still have both eyes and 10 fingers.

Have a good time with yours, sounds like you need to develop an early 1870's trooper persona for you next shoot - get the fair weather christian belt loaded up and ready to go!!

By the way, Sellers book is worth whatever they are charging, for Dorsey's books go to his web site at www.rsdmilitaria.com the book I am referring to is Guns of the Western Indians War By the way some Sharps serial numbers are known as to what CW unit they were issued, unlikely but look yours up, you may have some provenance there that makes its use even more exciting (and the gun worth considerably more!)

Let us know how it all works out.

[Tascosa Joe]

The book Battles of the Red River War by J. Brett Cruse has an appendix taken from Record Group 156-159, Microfilm Roll 1281, National Archives which is a Summary of Ordnance and Ordnance Stores of the 3rd Qtr Ending Sep 30, 1874.

The 8th US Cavalry was issued the Sharps .50 Cal Carbine along with Remington NMA and Colt SA.  I oddly enough in April they also showed, Springfield, Remington RB, the Sharps and the Ward-Burton.   I beleive these guys were an armorers nightmare.

The 9th Cav during the same period showed a mixture of Sharps, Springfield, Ward-Burton, Remington NMA and Colt Conversions.

The 4th, 6th, and 10th were almost exclusively Colt/Springfield armed.

I guess the bottom line here Aggie if you want to do a military personna, you can use about anything you want. 

David Carrico makes a really cool Fair Weather Christian ammo belt for your Sharps.

[Blackpowder Burn]

James,

Many thanks for the extremely useful information.  I found a copy of Sellers book for $62.50 through Amazon.com and ordered it.  It should make fascinating reading.

The rifle is very tight mechanically.  My friend had it examined by a good gunsmith, and my inspection shows the breech block is very tight even without a cartridge chambered.  He had loaded a box of ammo with APP and some 0.510 bullets he found at a local dealer, and we got about a 4" or 5" group at 25 yards yesterday.  That's not surprising if the bore is near 0.515", not to mention these bullets seemed to be of a relatively hard alloy.  And as you say, the sights don't help at all.

I'm really anxious to get the proper reloading components and give it a shot.  I'll order the components from Buffalo Arms today - 0.515 bullets, some Starline brass, powder compression die, wads, etc.  The rifle should be a hoot for Cody Dixon matches.

I'll let you know how the old girl shoots once I complete the load development.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Joe,

Does Dave have a website you can direct me to?  I'm not familiar with him.  I've not done a specific persona before with my SASS stuff, but with this rifle I may just have to put one together.

Thanks

[sharps50/70]

Aggie,

Dave might be the owner of Buffalo Arms Co.  They have a web site.  Once you get the proper sized bullet for your rifle, Buffalo Arms sells them,  you should get much better accuracy.  I use to get 6" groups at 200 yards with the original sights.  By the way, I think that is the range the sight is set for with the slide down and lowered to the barrel.
Rich

[Tascosa Joe]

Aggie D:

1.  What class were you in?  I am '72.

2.  Google Carrico Leather for Dave's web site.

3.  Come shoot NCOWS with us at Greenville.  If you are down around CS or Houston it is a long way but it is worth it.

T Joe

[Blackpowder Burn]

Joe,

1.  Class of '76.
2.  OK, I found it.
3.  I'm in the Conroe area.  That is a long way and my travel schedule makes it difficult to make long pilgrimages to shoot.  However, I would like to try to join you at some point.  I know you guys are real sticklers for historical accuracy, which I respect.  I assume a pair of USFA Premiums in 44WCF, a '73 Winchester in 44 WCF and a replica Colt 1878 shotgun are acceptable for your matches?  Do you have the opportunity to shoot long range lever or single shot?  If so, what are acceptable for these categories?  I have a Browning reproduction of the 1885 High Wall in 40-65, a Marlin 336 Cowboy in 38-55 and the Sharps discussed in this message string.

[James Hunt]

Dave Gullo is the owner of Buffalo Arms, it is THE resource for BP stuff.

You can get to Carrico's site at www.carricoleather.com, if you are into authenticity and a pre-74 trooper persona get the belt with the 51 belt plate and leather loops, or make it your self using a belt from any CW suttler (blockade runner comes to mind) for a fraction of the cost - it doesn't have to look that good since these were made by the troops themselves or post saddlers.

Finally, and I apologize in advance if you have experience with this stuff, but the issue of cleaning these old guns always pops up. There is a ton of BP cleaning agents out there, as far as I know it all works. And, there is equally a ton of advice on cleaning methods with some supporting their method with religious fervor. I am just telling you what works for me. I have long since simply employed what THEY used during the period, it works just as good as any modern stuff I have used, and it is the cheapest to boot.

To clean the weapon after firing I simply use water, if at the range I have a squirt bottle of the stuff and use it. If in camp I boil up some hot water and use it, but  not really necessary. I have been known to pour a couple tablespoons of vinegar in a gallon of water, but also not necessary. They used water. On new guns I simply run patches thru it, but on older guns that have a little pitting I use a brush for a few passes just to make sure I am getting the bore clean. After running a dry patch thru I simply run a patch thru the gun that has tallow on it. I smear it on pretty well. For the breach block I take the patch that was used in the bore and simply rub it down and all metal and wood surfaces of the gun. That is it. You can get a couple of years supply of sheep's tallow from Dixie Gun Works for a couple of bucks. I do wipe the chamber with -OH before I shoot just to make sure it is dry and not greasy - in larger cartridges such as the .45 2 7/8 you can get some case stretching if you don't. I have great experience using that technique on old guns. But the alchemy of gun cleaning can be far more involved if you wish it.

As for NCOWS being real sticklers for authenticity that is a myth, just about anything short of a pair of Nike's and a ball cap will get you started. The rule of guns is if it was there and you can prove it, you can use it. One of these day's I'm going to show up with a C-96 mauser semi auto just so I can be a historically accurate gamer.

Pull on some dusty boots, baggy pants, a ragged shirt and beat up hat and you are ready to mount up and chase hostiles!

[Blackpowder Burn]

James,

I appreciate the info.  I converted to the dark side about a year ago, and won't ever go back.  As you say, cleanup is so much easier that with that newfangled junk.  And there's nothing like the smoke and boom.  I have people at my home club get on my posse just to be near the boom and concussion of full-house 44-40 ammo.  I've been accused of missing targets with the bullet, but knocking them down with the concussion!  I'm slow, and I'm for damn sure no gamer! 

I will check out the sheeps tallow, hadn't heard of that before.  I've been using solely moose milk (Ballistol and water) with everything with excellent results so far.

[Yellowhouse Sam]

Don't know about you guys but I've discarded the notion of using vinegar solutions (an acid) down the bore of any rifle having mild steel or even iron.   Rust City if you're not careful.  Looked down the bore of my original RB sporter two days after using dilute windex with vinegar  and bout fainted.  The vinegar went right to work on that bore even though I'd used moose milk & oil afterwards. 

Went back to the old standby of warm water with 1-2 drops of dawn dishsoap followed by moosemilk (Ballistol cut 10:1) and finish up with straight ballistol.  Am staying with that too.

Interesting old carbine....and in great shape too.  The 50-70 was the mainstay weapon during the Indian wars and most of the buffalo hunts.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Yes, this is an interesting journey.  I'm enjoying having something new to learn about.

[James Hunt]

Man, I may regret bringing up the subject of BP cleaning. I know it is not dissimilar to seating a Baptist, an Episcopalian and a Jehovah's Witness all at the same table. Just remember it all works, what you choose to pay for it is up to you.

[Tascosa Joe]

Aggie:

Like James said anything will get you in the door at our NCOWS club for the first year.  We shoot some "long range" but we are limited to about 125 yards and we do not shoot long every weekend.    The distance from Conroe to Greenville is a pretty fair distance.  For a '76 model you sure look young in your Avatar.

[Blackpowder Burn]

The hat and smoke cover up all the gray hair! 

[Trailrider]

Howdy, Pards,
That Sharps is a cartridge conversion Model 1869, cal. .50-70.  It was originally a Model of 1863 Breech-loading, percussion cap or Lawrence pellet primer-fired .54 caliber arm, used during the Civil War.  The cartridges used before conversion were either made of skin (sheep gut) or paper.  The Lawrence pellet priming system consisted of pellets of fulminate of mercury that were loaded into a resevoir just forward of the hammer, which should be visible on the conversion.  A cam with a follower that rode in the groove on the inboard side of the hammer stem, pushed a sliding bar forward which stripped off a pellet, sending it forward onto the cone ("nipple" was a word not used in polite society back then!  ), just as the hammer nose came down on it.  (Think of a "Pez" dispenser!) The paper cartridge was inserted into the chamber, and as the lever raised the block, the sharp corner on the upper front of the breech block sheared off the rear of the paper cartridge, exposing the powder.  A large metal "gas check" on the front of the breech block was expanded by the hot gases, to theoretically seal the breech. When the gas check got dirty from repeated firing without cleaning, or became worn, it lost its effectiveness!  Nevertheless, the Sharps was highly regarded.

After the War, the Army decided that a carbine was needed that had more power than the Spencer Repeating Rifles being used by the Cavalry.  Although several breechloaders were tried, the Sharps cartridge conversion was deemed, at least temporarily, to be the best.  Those percussion carbines deemed serviceable were examined.  If the barrel groove diameter was .525 or greater, the barrels were bored out, and lined with a .515" dia. 3-land, 3-groove barrel.  A breechblock with a dog-legged firing pin, which has a cam to cause it to retract when the block lowered, was fitted, and the nose of the hammer flattened where it contacts the striker.  The Lawrence pellet priming system was removed, except for the reservoir itself.  Barrels with original groove diameters less that .525" were left alone.  The soft lead/tin bullets and black powder caused the bullet to "slug up" to fill the rifling.  Three groove barrels are easy to slug, but heck to measure.  If you can get rifling to engrave on a .515" dia. bullet, that size will be good enough for Gub'mint work.  The Lyman #515141 used to be the mould for the duplicate of the Army slug of the time. The only problem you might encounter is that the H&I dies for the #450 Lubrisizer are now mostly .512", whereas the ones I bought years ago did size .515".

In addition to the units posted, the 3rd Cavalry also were issued the Sharps carbines in 1870.  They retained them until the Trapdoor Springfield, cal. 45 (.45-70 or .45-55 ammo was interchangeable) in 1874.  Interestingly, Co. G, 3rd Cav., retained five (5) of the Sharps when they moved from Ft. D. A. Russell to Camp Sidney, Nebraska, in 1873.  As they had over 50,000 rounds of .50-70 ammo at Sidney, and the troops were only allowed to shoot three (3)...count 'em, three! rounds of .45-55/70 ammo per man per month, the Sharps were undoubtedly used to permit target practice, and to forage for game to supplement Army rations.  Also, there is evidence that the Sharps carbines were issued to civilian employees of the Quartermaster Dept. (teamsters, packers, scouts, interpreters, etc.) who were in the field with the troops.  At least two teamsters out of Sidney Barracks were on the Big Horn & Yellowstone Expedition under BGEN George Crook in 1876.  They may have been involved in the Rosebud battle, though there is no positive proof of their having fought, as Crook left his wagons at a camp where Sheridan, WY now stands.

One youngster, a 17 year-old, named Henry Pell apparently carved his name in the stock of one such Sharps.  He was employed at Sidney in 1875-'76, and there exists a sharps with the name "PELL" carved deeply in the stock.  Since no serial numbers were recorded for small arms during this time period, one cannot be certain that this carbine was one of the five, but a preponderance of the evidence points in that direction!

Incidentally, a note about the contemporary .50-70 ammo of the 1870's:  This stuff looks like it is rimfire. It is NOT! It is internally primed central fire, copper (gilding metal) cased ammo.  Modern-made brass cased ammo is the only stuff that should ever be fired in these old guns!  Although I have safely shot original .50-70 guns with light, tailored smokeless powder loads, I STRONGLY RECOMMEND THAT ONLY BLACK POWDER BE USED, AND THEN, ONLY IF THE GUN HAS BEEN CHECKED BY A COMPETENT GUNSMITH, FAMILIAR WITH THE SHARPS!

BTW, if any of you have Sharps or similar period military arms with names or initials carved in the stock, please let me know, as I have a theory that some were utilized by civilian employees of the Army, and subsequently sold or "lost" (with suitable deductions of pay) to the employee.  Because they would not have autographed a stolen weapon and probably wouldn't have carved up government property by putting their name, mark, etc., on the gun, the theory is that such marks were to distinguish the "civilianized" arms from those still owned by the Army.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Trailrider,

Thanks - you pards have given me a wealth of information on this fascinating old rifle.  This carbine is exactly as you describe the conversions, complete to the remainder of the pellet priming system.

FYI, you can purchase a custom 0.515 sizing die to fit the Lyman and RCBS lube/sizers from Buffalo Arms.  That is one of my next steps along with a mold purchase assuming my initial work with precast bullets of that size from Buffalo Arms is reasonably successful.

And yes, I have no intentions of using anything but black powder in this rifle.  That's the only thing I shoot in all my guns, anyway.