at the edge of the reloading precipice

[kflach]

I'm expecting my Lee Challenger Single-Stage Press to arrive within the next few days. I've got Big Lube bullets on the way, too. I've got Goex FFFG on hand and I'll be loading only .38 Spl cartridges. I already have 300 empty brass cases to work with and I believe some more may be coming. Some of my brass was a gift and it's mixed so I don't know how often it's been used. I'm at the edge of the reloading precipice but there are a few last things I need to know before I leap.

- I'm pretty sure I need to go ahead and order a Case Length Gauge and a Case Trimmer right away. I've seen that Lee sells a lock stud for the case holder  that can be attached to a drill for use with a case trimmer. Is it worth a darn to do it that way, or should I get something like the "Lee Zip Trim."

- Do I also need to get a caliper or should I just run all my brass through the trimmer before I reload it? If I need a caliper what kind do you recommend (it probably would be used to measure the depth of my primer seating as a double check as well as the length of the cases/bullets/whatever)?

- What about a primer pocket cleaner; is it a good thing or waste of time?

- Do I need to use a decapping die before cleaning the used brass in a tumbler?

- Some of my brass is nickel-plated. Do I need to do anything different in cleaning it compared to brassy brass.

- What about the Lee Auto Prime or Auto Prime II? Are they worth a darn? is there something better? Is that overkill and should I just look at the Lee Ram Prime or "50 BMG Ram Prime" (I don't even know what 50 BMG means).


P.S.  Noz, I promise I'm trying not to overthink it! <grin>

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy, Kevin!

Congratulations on your first baby   steps!  Just don't fall off.

          Things you'll need to buy (or do) now:

I hope the Lee set-up includes a Lee loading "how-to" book.  If not, GET one.  ANY of the major component suppliers are good, especially the Lyman BP book; the ones from Lee, Speer, etc. are great, too, but don't have much (if ANYTHING) about BP loads.

Caliper (MUCH better than a max-length gage, like Lyman sells) There are good Chinese made electronic digital ones at Harbor Freight and the same ones (packaged differently, but really the same) from Midway and most other shooting supply outlets.  Get one ASAP, IMO.

Separate nickle brass from plain.  Nickle is fine, but #1: not period correct - but NOT a big deal for a newbie, and #2: nickle cases will split much quicker from use.  Perhaps you could LEARN with them and save the brass cases a bit, until after you're more comfortable with loading. Cleans the same as regular brass.

The hand-held Lee Auto-Prime is a GREAT tool.  Don't forget to get a shell holder that fits the 38 Spl. cases.; it's Lee S.H. # 1, by the way, for 38/357 cases.  Even 'tho 99.9% of my loading is done on my Dillon RL550B, I still have - and use - my Lee Auto-Prime.  I'm also a big fan of Lee dies: not so much their presses, but I don't wish to get into that ... MANY of our cowboy pards are very happy with their Lee presses ... just not me.


    By the way - 50 BMG means "50 Caliber (or 1/2 inch) Browning Machine Gun."  Used in M2 and M85 heavy machine guns and some sniper rifles.  It will kill a Mack Truck - or a terrorist - at OVER a mile.  Back in 1921, it was America's first anti-tank weapon ... and sees daily use today.  (Key word = Browning.  He was a genius, and also invented - with a  little  help - the famous M1911, 45 ACP [Automatic Colt Pistol] pistol.  
********************************************************************

           Things to acquire later.

Don't worry about a trim machine ... it will wait until you have other calibers.  The Lee hand trimmer WITH lock stud works fine if you must   have one.  I have no experience with the Zip-Trim, but I doubt you'll need ANYTHING for your 38 Spl. cases.

Lee makes a pretty nifty primer pocket cleaner, but it won't need to clean the pockets until after 5 or 6 loadings, IMHO.  Having said that, I clean mine after 2-3 because I had some no-fire primers.  I don't know whether it was the dirty pockets (loaded 8-10 times) or the primers.  I'm cleaning AND I'm using a different Lot # of primers and have had no recent failures, so SOMETHING worked!  I also prefer the RCBS type with handles, but a well-fitted screwdriver can work, too.

Don't bother de-capping before cleaning the cases.


Keep up the good work, Grasshopper!   Er ... cockroach.





PS - Noz gave good advice.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

1.  Case length gauge?  I've never had to trim a .38 special.  The LEE hand trimmers are the easiest to get started with.

2.  Calipers?  Great idea.  They are all made in China, so get one from a discount hardware outfit.

3.  Primer pocket cleaner?  I use a small screwdriver.  Works great.

4.  Decapping die?  A universal decapping die is pretty handy.  Until you get one, you can use The decapping die from a die set for a larger caliber.

5.  Plated brass?  Nothing different required.  I do sort all mixed brass.  Some dimensions may vary from make to make and sometimes by lot.  You can make usable ammo from mixed brass, but I use specific headstamp for each type of load for ID, and to ensure consistency.  Some say plated brass turns brittle faster.  I use plated for practice loads and brass for matches.

6.  Priming tool?  I use the LEE, but mine requires its own shell holder.  My son likes the RCBS, as it uses standard shell holders.  The Ram-prime looks like it'll work well.

7.  50 BMG?  50 cal. "Browning Machine Gun"  Larger size to accommodate BIG brass.

Have you found a hands-on mentor?  Hard to over think, but reading, listening and mentoring will give you a better idea of whats important.

[Noz]

All good questions, all good answers. I'd add that I like the Lee Auto Prime. When I get a big batch of cases sized cleaned and ready to prime, I do it while watching TV.
The 50 BMG is what you will hear refered to as Ma Deuce. She's the M2 Machine gun. Really a hoot to shoot.  Makes BIG holes way down there. We were issues a Quad 50(4 M2 on a single mount-intended in WW2 to be used as antiaircraft) to take to VietNam as an anti personnel weapon. An extended firing session could and did render the firer unconscious

[kflach]

Thanks for the info so far.

I have a Speer Reloading manual. I've also got "The Complete Blackpowder Handbook" by Sam Fadala on it's way. I'm going to take a look at the "Blackpowder Cartridge Reloading Primer" by Mike Ventrino next time I'm at Cabelas and I may add that to my collection, too. I've found a number of articles by Ventrino online as well.

I've got a couple of people I can call long distance, but I also know a couple of the Texas Ten Horns that I may be able to smooth-talk (or bribe) into coming over when I've got everything together.

As far as separating the brass, I should be able to do that by looking at the stampings on the bottom of the case, right?

It sounds like I might not need that 50 BMG Ram Prime until next year...

...I've heard a rumor that based on the success of the "Wild Bunch" matches, SASS is going to try having some "Kelly's Heroes" matches in 2011.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I've been reloading for years and have never trimmed a single case. They don't lengthen at all at the pressures we shoot.

If you want to get all your brass the same length just to start, that's fine, most recommend it, but I have never bothered. Just take a random sampling of your brass and set up your seating/crimping die for the longest of the batch. That's why you need a caliper, to measure your brass and your Over All Cartridge Length. Don't bother with the gauge, your manual will tell you what the max length should be for your brass, as well as the trim to length. The way it works is, as brass gets fired over and over again, the inside pressure forces the brass to stretch. At some point, the brass will stretch beyond the Maximum length. That's when it is time to trim it back. The Trim To length is usually .005 or .010 less than the Max length. It's kind of like starting all over again. You trim to the Trim To length, and then shoot the brass a whole bunch of times until it stretches to the Max length again.

But the truth is, at the pressures we shoot at, we don't develop enough pressure to stretch the brass at all. Trust me on this, I bought a used case trimmer when I first started reloading, and measured a whole bunch of brass in preparation for trimming it, but after shooting the same brass a whole bunch of times, and measuring it again, it had not stretched even .001. It just don't stretch at these pressures. The only reason to trim brass is to get it all the same length in the first place, and frankly, I have been doing just fine for years now, loading 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 Auto Rim, 44-40, 44 Special, and 38 Special, without trimming any of it.

I also bought a primer cleaning brush when I first started reloading. Another waste of time and effort. I do clean out primer pockets for my Black Powder 45-70 brass, it's pretty precise stuff. For my run of the mill CAS BP loads and non-CAS loads, I don't bother to clean primer pockets.

I also don't decap before tumbling. The only reason to do this is if you are going to clean primer pockets. If you ain't, and I don't, I just dump them right in the tumbler, soaking my BP brass first, but not my Smokeless stuff. Out of the tumbler they go right into the sizing/decap die on the progressive press. I don't even own any separate decapping dies. Waste of time and effort unless you are practicing for the Olympic Pistol Team.

[fourfingersofdeath]

Your answers are all there, but I'll adda little. If you are starting out and are just going to load for one or two calibres, the Lee handheld Auto Primes are excellent tools. I have oone and it has been in constant use since 1981. No trouble, just had to remove a burr a year or so after I got it which was making the operation a bit rough. Not a lick of trouble since (I think they used a softer alloy way back when as I had to do the same to Auto Disk powder thrower, which is also still in use after trillions (well many, many thousands of rounds through it). If you are planning to load a lot of different cartridges, the RCBS might be a better bet for you as you don't have to buy a special shellholder every time you buy a gun in a new calibre. The Lee Ram Prime is also very good, but you have to be careful with it as the primers can tip over easily. I like to use this for high pressure smokless rifle loading where I am looking for accuracy and want absolutely consistent seating (not that I've ever reallyyyyyyyyyyy noticed any difference). This one is cheap and you use your shellholders from the press.

I wax and wane on cleaning primer pockets, I have never done it on pistols (just starting out on black, so maybe that'll change). Generally you don't want to deprime before tumble cleaning because the media will get into the flash holes, a bit of a PITA, but no big deal, you just have to check before you prime. I use a small Allen Key kept handy to clear the hole as I go if I ever do it this way. My mate uses one of those RCBS wet tumble cleaners. Slow, mega expensive, but Boy!!! Do they come out clean, primer pockets and all, completely sparkling.

One othe thing I like to use is the Lee Auto Disk powder thrower. Cheap and bells the case mouth at the same time, saving you one operation in the loading process, which is important in a single stage press. I have never, ever check weighed a charge from one of these, I have 4-6 of them and have been loading bulk ammo for almost 30 years on them. I joke that as far as pistol ammo on a single stage press goes, if it don't go in an Auto Disk, it just don't go. Another advantage of these throwers is that you can actually see the powder being dropped.

Odds and ends are handy as well, you will develop your own tools to assist. I use two big funnels which are very handy. One has a shortened spout for transferring powder to the powder thrower and back to the tin (showing my age here, they don't come in tins anymore, just like shaking the milk before you open it, all homogenised now). A small paintbrush for cleaning away powder spills, etc. A plastic chemical drum with the lid cut off to house the tumble polisher when not in use and to catch the media when the tumbler is emptied. An onion bag or collander (you may have to open up the holes with a drill) to separate the brass and media. A hole drilled in the bench near the press to hold Allen keys. An old mug holding a few pens and markers and a fishing reel oiler pen, all handy things to have at hand. Lots of plastic ice cream buckets, always handy. You get the idea and you will develop ideas as you go along. Good luck and keep us posted.

[pony express]

I agree with the others on the auto prime, it beats priming on a single stage press. Also about the trimmer, I've never trimmed a single piece of .38, and I've been loading it 35 years.(and some of the brass is that old!) The cases will probably "die" from neck splits before it ever needs trimming. What are you going to use for measuring powder? The lee dies usually come with a dipper, but it will be for smokeless powder, and waaaay too small for black in that round. If you have an adjustable measure for your remington, that could work. Or just get a Lee Dipper set, slow, but ok for low volume and for a beginner.

[44caliberkid]

I'm another guy who has been loading since 1975 and never trimmed a single case.   And I've got 44-40's that I've loaded 10 or 12 times and they're supposed to stretch because of the thin brass.   I bought a case trimmer 30 years ago and it's never been out of the box, so don't waste your money.   I've loaded new brass from Winchester and Starline and all I did was full length resize.
  The Lee primer handtool is another gadget I've used extensively, had the same one over 25 years and never had a problem.
  I never had a set of calipers till about 10 years ago and I only used them a few times for reloading.  I got more use out of them gunsmithing and currently they're lost, haven't seen 'em in over a year.
  You don't need a powder measure for black powder reloading.   They are handy for quickly charging a bunch of cases, but a Lee dipper and a little funnel work just as quick for pennies.
  Loading cartridges isn't rocket science.   It's actually very easy and I've always though gun writers cause way to much anxiety with their articles and cautions.

[Delmonico]

I will say, if you ever start loading high powered rifles, do keep good track of neck length, some of the suckers sure will grow.

[44caliberkid]

Yes Del, that was the only time I used the calipers, for 223 and 30-06.

[Fingers McGee]

I'll add the the refrain about a case trimmer.  I've been reloading for 30+ years and have never trimmed a pistol caliber case; and have not fired rifle cases (30-30, 45-70) enough to warrant it.  I've got a good set of calipers; but can't remember the last time I used them.

I also don't decap cases before tumbling.  I don't shoot precision rifle or bullseye, so I don't see the necessity.  
I use a Hornady L-N-L press, so decapping is done when sizing with priming immediately after.  I do have a Lee Autoprime that gets used when I'm using the RCBS single stage press for low volume reloads and don't feel like changing primer size on the L-N-L.

[Delmonico]

Yes Del, that was the only time I used the calipers, for 223 and 30-06.

They're not really for BP but I thought that needed added just in case, can't be too safe and over lengh cases in a 50-60,000 psi round can get interesting, or so I've heard.

[Delmonico]

Don't think it's valid here, but if one is looking for the best accuarcy in any round, one wants all cases trimmed to the exact length, esp if they are going to be crimped because the crimps will vary a bit.  But you also don't use mixed brass for this.  I shoot a lot of 32 mag smokeless and trim all new brass to the same length, but have never had to trim again. 

But this is for varmints hunting and such beyond 50 yards.   Not needed in the big close CAS targets.

[kflach]

I'm seeing a trend here on the case trimmer. I'm glad I asked about that - I'll save the money and spend it on something else.

As far as measuring the powder, I plan on using Driftwood Johnson's method mentioned in the Dark Arts board to create a powder measure out of a case. I'm pretty sure I can cut it and weld it properly. I may eventually get some kind of powder measure, but this seems like a good way to start off.

My rifle is .38 spl and my revolver is a cap and ball, so all I have to worry about is .38 spl cartridges. That also appears to make things easier.

[pony express]

I haven't read Driftwood's method, but I've made dippers from cut off pistol cases before. For black powder, just figure how deep the bullet will be seated, and cut it off about 1/16 or so longer, so you compress the powder a little. Add a handle made out of some coat hanger, or similar and you're done. If you don't want to weld or solder, just use some epoxy or JB Weld.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Cheap Tricks!

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,9463.0.html

(my very own contribution is the 6th post)

[Tascosa Joe]

Kevin:

I sent you a PM.  Call me if you want to visit.

T-Joe

[Driftwood Johnson]

Ummmm............

My little post in the dark arts is not about making dippers. It is about how to determine the proper amount of powder for a particular bullet and caliber.

Do yourself a favor. If you are going to be loading BP, buy the Lee dipper set. I guarantee you there will be a dipper in the set that will be perfect for whatever you are trying to do. I don't load 38s with BP, so I cannot tell you just which dipper to use, but if you use my method, you will find a good dipper in the set. The set is very cheap, well worth the investment. Much easier than making your own dipper.

[Pitmaster]

If you are going to be loading BP, buy the Lee dipper set. I guarantee you there will be a dipper in the set that will be perfect for whatever you are trying to do. I don't load 38s with BP, so I cannot tell you just which dipper to use,

I can. I use the 1.3cc dipper to make .38s with a 162 grain LSWC TL bullet. I'm using Hogdgon 777 FFG powder. I keep the dipper in the powder container so I don't have to hunt for it.