Newby Loading Questions

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Hi,

I am just entering into the blackpowder arena ... I know some of the theory but am very lacking on practical knowledge.
So here are my questions:

1.) I have just bought a 1980s Pietta 1851 Colt in .44 Cal. I can find lots of information on loading the .36 Colt, but none on the .44 Caliber 1851.  Any advice would be appreciated!

2.  The weapon will be used for docent purposes for the most part. I want to buy the smallest flask I can that will charge all six rounds (i.e., one cylinder). But powder charges are in grains, where flasks are measured in ounces. Does anyone have the statistic of how many grains of powder are in one ounce?

Thank you in advance for your kind assistance!

[Cuts Crooked]

7000 grains to a pound......about 437 grains to the ounce

[44caliberkid]

Get a flask like this one from Dixie.   Throws a 24 grain charge, which is just right for your .44.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_100_353&products_id=11641&osCsid=3804ad6b3621e41f6b2d75953e8e91db

[Flint]

The flask is described in ounces because that is the capacity of the flask bottle.  The flask has a measuring tube screwed into the top that is calibrated in grains, and you can either cut the one that came with the flask to length for the charge you want, or buy additional tubes to supply your needs and experiment with loads.

The 44 caliber 1851 is basically an 1860 Army with a bored out octagonal Navy barrel.  Load it as an 1860 per manuals or other loading charts for the 44, assuming the frame is steel.  If your frame is brass, then you need to back the load off, and perhaps 24 grains is the maximum you should load.  With a steel frame you can go up to about 30 grains of fffg.

The ball size for a Pietta is 451 or max 454.

[Deadguy]

Don't forget to put a lubricated wad between the powder and ball OR top off the chambers with the black powder lube of your choice.  I have found that while the lubricated wads work well and are faster and easier to deal with, topping off the chambers with lube keeps the gun running a little bit longer before it fouls out and seizes up.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Okay, I am officially confused ....

According to this thread, 25-30 grains of powder is a good charge for this gun.

But when I found the Pietta online manual, it stated 12-15 grains of FFG ...

Any thoughts?

[44caliberkid]

Pietta, Uberti and Dixie all recommend minimum charges, a real wimp load.  I don't even use 11 grains in a .36, more like 17 -18.   This is because of liability concerns in case some jug head blows himself up and sues them.
  24 - 30 grains is just fine in a 44.

[Delmonico]

7000 grains to a pound......about 437 grains to the ounce

437.5 to be exact.

[Cuts Crooked]

437.5 to be exact.

Oh, all right 437.5     (I didn't use a calculator, ok?    )

[Delmonico]

  (I didn't use a calculator, ok?    )

I didn't either, but that fact is stuck in my head, you don't want to know what other info is stuck up there.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

So Correct me if I am 'way off in my math ... I was an English major okay? *S*

But if a charge is 25 grains ... and there are 437 grains in an ounce .... that would make about 16 rounds plus change per ounce?

So if I found an ounce or two flask with a 25 grain measuring tube, I would have at least two cylinders (i.e. 12 rounds)?

(BTW, I also own two Ruger Old Armies, which will be my primary weapons for competition should I wish to do so)...

The Pietta is going in a cross draw holster to become a holster queen for a docent role as a Californio ... but I wanted to make sure I would have about what a 1852 person would ride into town with ... and something small enough to put into a black powder belt pouch ... along with a dozen balls, wads and caps (each in a tobacco pouch of its own). Or thrown into each of the Vaquero jacket pocket

So again, any thoughts about something I might have missed ... besides tobacco, cigarette papers and matches ....

[44caliberkid]

Well if you want something really small Dixie has what they call "small Italian bag flask".   It's for .31 caliber pistols and has a 12 grain spout.   You could order a 25 spout or just charge the chambers twice.   Since it's mainly for looks, this might work for you.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=7823&osCsid=7de2088d0311d7c0824e9a89bea494bb

[Flint]

Don't know about any ounce or two flask, most all the pistol flasks I've had or seen seem to hold a quarter to a third pound of powder, more like 2000 grains, not 437gr..

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Hi,

A while back I bought a mini-flask designed to prime flintlocks ... but when I got it, it had a 10-15 grain measuring tube, and the threads are too fine to mate with any other measuring tube ...

But I would imagine it holds 1-2 ounces ... which would be perfect for me if I could get the threads rethreaded in the flask to fit standardized threads on powder measures ....

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Here's a nice pistol flask:
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/%28S%28vjeayszyiwjwyc45fdsirzii%29%29/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=1&subId=11&styleId=32&partNum=FLASK-HAWKSLEY-PISTOL

try this if it loads weird: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/

(you can hang this from a lanyard or strip of leather. The spout's small, but maybe it's threaded right fer bigger spouts.)

Since you're recreating an actual character, you might think about whether any pistoleer would carry a tiny powder flask?  Anyone serious enough about carrying a pistol is gonna want a fair amount of powder, I wager.

Or, if you really need a small one, just use the one ya got and double charge the cylinder.

[Deadguy]

Well, nobody would have had a 1851 model Colt Navy in .44 caliber in 1852.  They would have had one in .36, because that's all that Colt made at the time.  Also, odds are they would have used the flask that Colt sold with them, not some tiny little thing like you are talking about, and kept it, and spare balls, and maybe a bullet mold, in the saddlebag on the horse.  Reloads for a cap and ball probably would not have been kept in a pouch on the belt, unless they were the paper cartridges, because re-loading a cap and ball with separate ball and powder is not going to happen during a fight!  That's when you'd pull out your fighting knife. I'm also not too sure that a model 1851 would be all that common in California in 1852.  Much more likely pistols would have been the Model 1849's and the Pattersons.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Well, nobody would have had a 1851 model Colt Navy in .44 caliber in 1852.  They would have had one in .36, because that's all that Colt made at the time.  Also, odds are they would have used the flask that Colt sold with them, not some tiny little thing like you are talking about, and kept it, and spare balls, and maybe a bullet mold, in the saddlebag on the horse.  Reloads for a cap and ball probably would not have been kept in a pouch on the belt, unless they were the paper cartridges, because re-loading a cap and ball with separate ball and powder is not going to happen during a fight!  That's when you'd pull out your fighting knife. I'm also not too sure that a model 1851 would be all that common in California in 1852.  Much more likely pistols would have been the Model 1849's and the Pattersons.

Deadguy;

You are right on all accounts. First, this pistol will probably never leave the holster; and if someone can tell a .44 Cal 1851 from the backstrap I will tip my hat to them and graciously accept my ignorance; I just have this thing about owning a .36 Cal ... And true, a real cowboy would have the Colt flask on his horse ... but Californios looked on pistols with a fair amount of distaste, and if I were going to be a docent on horseback, I would be carrying a sabre mounted to my saddle as well as the Belduque tucked into my Botas (which is being made as we speak). So any small flask (and dozen balls) would be just walking around protection in case the first five or six did not do the job. BTW, I just had an email from Dixie Gun Works that my little HA0252 will hold 1/3 pound of powder ... so I am thinking that I have at least a reload or two in it....

Since I am aiming at a Sacramento Area Californio circa 1852-3, it would be quite easy to pick up a 1851 from the Colt Distributorship in San Francisco (the first Model 1851s leaving New York in April of 1850). San Francisco would have been an overnight riverboat or a couple of days ride from Sacramento ....

J.D:

Always a pleasure to hear from you .... and I looked at your flask ... yes, it would have been nice to use, but this one is bought and paid for ... It is a Dixie Gun Works HA0250 and I think I can get it rethreaded to fit any of the normal sized powder tube measures .... and I would need to fill three of the largest measured tube amounts to charge each of the .44's cylinders (With the Sykes)....

P.S. My Flask has a Mexican Eagle on it ... which would be something a Californio might like ....

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

WWE--you be sure to post a picture when you finish your outfit! 

[WaddWatsonEllis]

J.D.;

Wilco!

I am just waiting for the Botas de Alas to be made by Chuck Burrows, and soon Josh Dabney will be working on my Belduque .... complete with filigree grips!

One thing I have read in both Dana's writing on Californios and from too many other sources ... a Californio would might not know where his next meal was coming from, but you would never know it by his dress or choice of clothing and weapons ... always the best, and always gracious ...

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Postscript,

Rereading my posts, I think I sounded on paper like I was 'flaming' on you, Deadguy.

Nothing could be further from the truth; I apologize if I came accross high-handed or some such.

As an Anglo taking the part of a Californio, I expect to take much worse from the Hispanic-Americans that will be in the groups that I am to be a docent for .... so any critques you have make me ready for much worse that I shall be facing in person .... and give me time to have answers to the questions given to me.

So thank you very much (this is meant sincerely and not sarcastically) for your thoughts ... and I welcome any one with questions to either PM me or send me their thoughts on this thread or the other Californio thread that I have ...