Rossi lever actions

[Karl]

Obviously a Rossi does not feed very well with a broken magazine spring.  I am surprised that it worked as well as it did.  I am please with how much easier my old Vaqueros are to cock since I swapped out the stock hammers for Super Blackhawk hammers.  They are almost getting ahead of me now.  I would like shorter barrels for my old Crescent rabbit ear

[Karl]

One of our new shooters is looking at buying a Rossi in .454 and shooting .45LC in matches.   His plan is to also use the .454 as a hunting rifle since it has just enough umph for what is hunting you here unlike maybe a straight .45LC. 

Does anyone have any experience with how well the .454 Rossis perform in SASS matches firing .45LC? 

[Trailrider]

One of our new shooters is looking at buying a Rossi in .454 and shooting .45LC in matches.   His plan is to also use the .454 as a hunting rifle since it has just enough umph for what is hunting you here unlike maybe a straight .45LC. 

Does anyone have any experience with how well the .454 Rossis perform in SASS matches firing .45LC? 

To be useful in SASS matches a .454 Casull-chambered rifle has to be reduced in velocity, as you know. The chamber in the .454 is longer than a .45 LC chamber. You can use .45 LC brass, just as you can use .44 Special brass in a .44 Magnum chamber, or a .38 Special in a .357 Magnum chamber, you need to clean the chamber pretty consistantly or you may have trouble chambering the longer brass. However, with a high pressure cartridge like the .454 (upwards of 40,000 psi), you may erode the chamber to the point where the .454 ammo may suffer extraction problems no matter how carefully you clean it. OTOH, if you attempt to reduce the loads using .454 brass, which is much thicker than .45LC, you won't get enough expansion from the brass to prevent blowy.

My reommendation would be to pass on the .454 and go for a .44 Magnum. Granted, that cartridge doesn't have quite the nockdown power of the .454, but if you are going after game bigger than a .44 Magnum will handle, you need a bigger round than the .454. Just MHO.

[Jeremiah Jones]

One of our new shooters is looking at buying a Rossi in .454 and shooting .45LC in matches.   His plan is to also use the .454 as a hunting rifle since it has just enough umph for what is hunting you here unlike maybe a straight .45LC. 

Does anyone have any experience with how well the .454 Rossis perform in SASS matches firing .45LC? 

I have a .454/.45.  I do not shoot CAS but I do a lot of hunting/plinking/range time.  I  think this is the perfect gun.  With .45 you can fire everything from light CAS to full bore LeverRevolution for hunting.  Paco Kelly says that with the right load in .454 it will take any thin or thick skinned animal on Earth.  I know it will drop a buck in his tracks.  No tracking needed.

[Karl]

Thank you all.  I have gotten him a little more feedback including:  http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/466684/site_id/1
I am a little surprised to hear that the Rossi .454 is described as a good .45 LC shooter that just happens to also handle .454 when something needs hit harder.  I was expecting to hear that it had problems feeding the shorter .45 LC. 

[smokin6]

May need to get one in 454 ! 

[Karl]

My Rossi was a nightmare last shoot.  Just not feeding.  When I took it apart for cleaning the stock magazine came out in three pieces despite me oiling it with each cleaning.   
Ordering a stainless replacement from:  http://www.thesmithshop.com/magfollow.html 

I should probably order a stainless spring and follower for my wife's Marlin 94 while I am at it. 

I have gone through a frustrating spell of my Rossi not chambering correctly.  It stove pipes, double feeds, fails to pick up, ...  you name it.  With the help of two gunsmiths we finally figured it out, sort of.  It has become "picky" and does not like .452 as opposed to .454 or short rounds.  It didn't care what I fed it for the first couple thousand rounds.  I have heard that the short-stroke kit makes them very case length sensitive but I have not installed such a kit.  Has anyone else had this trouble and have any other corrections?  Regardless, it is working again and I have adjusted my reloading. 

Oh yes, our new Rossi .454 shooter decided to have a baby so has hardly shown up to a shoot with it.     He does not reload and has been giving me a lot of brass so I loaded 100 rounds for him to try and lure him back this month. 

[Coffinmaker]

Step Right up Folks ... Here we are at Resurrection Junction!!

Greetings KARL!!  How are ya??

WHAT   SHORT STROKE   KIT??  I don't mean to be snarky (yes I do) but there is NO short stroke kit for an 1892.  There is no short stroking of an 1892.  If someone suggests a "short stroke" for a 92 for you ..... politely walk away.  Or say nasty things ... then walk away.

Your Rossi sound to me like it's suffering from being a Rossi.  If it fed 454 before, it should feed 454 now, unless you have a problem with leading in the chamber.  Your Rossi SHOULD run anything you feed it.  Now for the litany > > > > >

Most Rossi need to have the extractor reduced to be lighter.  Most Rossi need to have the Ejector Spring replaced with an after-market spring.  Most Rossi need to have the Lever Latch spring reduced or replaced with after-market and the latch point rounded and polished.
Most Rossi need to have the Main Spring reduced or replaced with after-market.  Those are the basics.

You state your rifle is stove piping and double feeding.  You need to look at your right side cartridge guide.  It may be worn.  Also, most Rossi need the right side shimmed out to just kiss the side of the cartridge.  That should stop the stove piping and double feeds.  Failing to Pick Up is normally your fault by not running the lever fully forward.  That error is normally because you are anticipating the other problems.

[PJ Hardtack]

I guess I lucked out with my pre-wing nut safety 44-40 Rossi SRC.  I've only had it stove pipe once when I was very rough in chambering the first round. Had that happen with my b-92 s well.

Accuracy wise, I have taken seven grouse with this fall, all of them clean head shots.

I looked into getting the recommended springs but "Steve" does not ship north of the DMZ.

[Karl]

I guess I lucked out with my pre-wing nut safety 44-40 Rossi SRC.  I've only had it stove pipe once when I was very rough in chambering the first round. Had that happen with my b-92 s well.

Accuracy wise, I have taken seven grouse with this fall, all of them clean head shots.

I looked into getting the recommended springs but "Steve" does not ship north of the DMZ.

I am just a little too far away to help with the springs.   What is the CAS scene like in BC? 

My Rossi was a reliable workhorse too for thousands of rounds.  I shoot almost exclusively black powder loads which might not be helping.  It works well with store bought ammo and is more polished and oiled than new so I am almost tempted to trade up for a 66.  Almost. 

Coffinmaker - Shimming might just do the trick.   I have been absent a while (lost my pass word).  

[PJ Hardtack]

Karl

We didn't have much of a CAS season this year due to massive wildfires across the province. We partnered with another club to have a joint match that drew several SASS-enachs who were not impressed with our style of shooting. Some swore they would never return and we shed no years.

We have a split here in BC between the coastal and southern interior SASS-enachs and those of us who do not enjoy shooting at large targets at 7 and 10 yds. We enjoy the challenge of tougher targets and no one has ever shot our annual match clean.

Our SASS-enach guests would not engage in any of the side matches were accuracy and speed were required like a 'man-on-man' steel event, etc. When there was a tough bonus target in a stage, they would not even attempt it but rap off a quick shot in the general direction going for speed.

Our club enjoys shooting at smaller targets at longer distances like 'B' zones at 25 yds. We also have an event were we shoot at a SASS Cowboy at 100 yds in a speed & accuracy match. My wife wins this more often than not.

[Jeremiah Jones]

My Rossi 1892 (.45/.454) is 7 years old.  I replaced the safety and follower. I also gave the wood several coats of Danish Wood Oil.  Otherwise it is stock.  I use .45 most of the year and switch to .454 this time of the year for deer season.  I have never had a problem with it functioning with either .45 or .454. I did not give it a smoothing/slicking job or futz with the springs.  It works perfectly.  It would not win any SASS competition as it can't cycle in a nanosecond.

[greyhawk]

Karl n Coffinmaker

Intermittent feed problem with a Rossi 92?
I fixed a couple,of Rossis in our local club had this problem - both times it was a hang up with the function of the magazine cutoff - (that thingy attached to the front end of tha left side cartridge guide wot stops all the contents of the magazine from coming in the action at once) one gun was just gunk leftover from shipping fouling it - sometimes it would feed good then a jam - worked better for me than for the owner - I am a bit more vigorus wid the lever - sneakin up on a 92 - IS NOT - the way to get it to work good (all winchesters I reckon even my model 70 bolt gun runs better if you have at it like you mean it) - anyway a good dismantle and cleaning fixed that one - tother was hangin up the tip of the cutoff just kissing the barrel face - if ya look there is a little relief cutout to clear that (you guys know that one - Coffinmaker does fer sure) - so thats the first and easiest place to look fer an INTERMITTENT feed problem - I just take a little BRASS rod wid the action open and work that cutoff back n forth n if it dont function easy n sweet - pull the thing down and find out why - could be a busted spring, crud fouling the sides of the slot it goes back into when the bolt is closed - or at worst that little tip is hanging up on the barrel face --- both the aforesaid guns were running full lenghth ammo (stuff would jam a 73) if the loaded round is right level with the nose of the carrier the lifter can function with the cutoff jammed and ya get a jam under the lifter - short ammo if the cutoff sticks the next round comes in and fouls the lifter before it rises.
I would say in Karls case ammo is proly not the root cause of the problem - even though changing it might seem to fix things - a 92 should function without jamming on a variety of ammo length and nose shapes (NOT wadcutters tho)
Ps Coffinmaker - that 92 conversion I was working on a couple weeks back is done and working slick n smooth - waiting now on a new barrel to replace the worn ex 76 one that I built it around - now .........maybe I can find a clapped out 73 someplace with a totalled barrel cuz that ole one shoots good enough to keep it from the scrap heap

[greyhawk]

92 firing pins
just a caution here - have replaced firing pin in two model 92's that came to me broken
The latest one was still functional but I discovered the break when I pulled it down for other purposes (converting 32/20 to 44/40)
Both broken right in the middle of the lever recess part - I have a theory here might save some folk a heap of trouble - I watch gunplumber videos on utube - shudder sometimes at what these guys do on occasion - I believe both these broken firing pins were caused by driving the lever pin back in with a punch and hammer - just like ALL the videos tell ya to do it - the firing pin can tilt a little sideways in the bolt and foul the pin as you reassemble - and if ya couple that with putting the FLAT end of the pin in first instead of the beveled end - then drive it with the hammer you end up trying to belt that pin through the thinnest part of the firing pin - it will pop out of the way and the pin will go in OR in the process the firing pin will flex up and crack OR -----ooooops we take it out and try again and it goes together ---
NO !!!!! NO a thousand times no - get rid of the hammer  (Bubba says get a bigger hammer son - not this time Bubba - not this time)
That lever pin should go in easy - specially on a gun that has done some work -- yes you might need the hammer and punch to lightly tap it home once it is properly engaged --- think about this there is a lot of stuff to line up -- two holes in the bolt - two in the lever - a clearance recess on the firing pin above the lever pin and a clearance recess on the ejector barrel below the lever pin as well you have the ejector spring pushing back against it all --- hammering is gonna bust something !!! so put a pin punch in from the loading gate side and jiggle things into place while you push that pin in with your thumb - you will feel the bevelled end go past the firing pin body and through the second hole in the lever - on an older winchester I would expect to be able to push that pin all the way home with a flat end pin punch - just add a gentle little tap to be sure - Rossi or a new made gun is gonna be tighter but feel that thing go in still - dont force it !
The guys that take the time to read this proly been there done it a hundred times dont need to read - but if this your first or fifth time pulling down a 92 - pay attention ! maybe it helps 

[Karl]

Karl n Coffinmaker

Intermittent feed problem with a Rossi 92?
I fixed a couple,of Rossis in our local club had this problem - both times it was a hang up with the function of the magazine cutoff - (that thingy attached to the front end of the left side cartridge guide wot stops all the contents of the magazine from coming in the action at once) one gun was just gunk leftover from shipping fouling it - sometimes it would feed good then a jam - worked better for me than for the owner - I am a bit more vigorous with the lever - sneakin up on a 92 - IS NOT - the way to get it to work good (all winchesters I reckon even my model 70 bolt gun runs better if you have at it like you mean it) - anyway a good dismantle and cleaning fixed that one - together was hangin up the tip of the cutoff just kissing the barrel face - if ya look there is a little relief cutout to clear that (you guys know that one - Coffinmaker does fer sure) - so that's the first and easiest place to look fer an INTERMITTENT feed problem - I just take a little BRASS rod wid the action open and work that cutoff back n forth n if it don't function easy n sweet - pull the thing down and find out why - could be a busted spring, crud fouling the sides of the slot it goes back into when the bolt is closed - or at worst that little tip is hanging up on the barrel face --- both the aforesaid guns were running full length ammo (stuff would jam a 73) if the loaded round is right level with the nose of the carrier the lifter can function with the cutoff jammed and ya get a jam under the lifter - short ammo if the cutoff sticks the next round comes in and fouls the lifter before it rises.
I would say in Karl's case ammo is proly not the root cause of the problem - even though changing it might seem to fix things - a 92 should function without jamming on a variety of ammo length and nose shapes (NOT wadcutters tho)
Ps Coffinmaker - that 92 conversion I was working on a couple weeks back is done and working slick n smooth - waiting now on a new barrel to replace the worn ex 76 one that I built it around - now .........maybe I can find a clapped out 73 someplace with a totalled barrel cuz that ole one shoots good enough to keep it from the scrap heap

Thank you Greyhawk.   What you described mostly matches what was happening.  Where could I find a new magazine cutoff to buy?  Would shimming work instead of a new part? 
I did not mean to start reloading shorter .45 rounds.  I must have just been twisting my die a little each time that I changed it.  My old Vaqueros don't care what I feed them. 
Trust me, I shoot my lever actions like I stole them so being too gentle is not part of the problem.  My Rossi 92 does not mind wadcutters nearly as much as my wife's Marlin but I avoid wadcutters now just the same. 

Just to show what we are talking about here.

The firing pin advice is interesting.  I may have found an antique Marlin for my lovely wife's Christmas present.  The price is good and it is in .32 so SASS legal but has about as many broken parts as not.  The firing pin dropped out in two pieces and Numrich is out of them.  I am working with the seller to see it I can have a new one machined since it is a pretty simple part.  The split magazine sleeve might be a little trickier to fix. 
Her goal is to have all originals for her SASS kit.  She has the S&W revolvers already and is looking for a shooter 20 ga damascus or the likes (she just found a surprisingly sweet little 16 ga damascus coach gun for $400.  I am tired of learning to load more old ammo.    This little coach gun is pretty and feels like someone tuned it for SASS a century ago.)  The lengths that I go to to bribe my wife into coming out to shoots. 

[PJ Hardtack]

I'm sure I've seen a 'short stroke kit' for those matchlocks .......

I've always thought it odd that there is no 'short stroke kit' offered for the '92, the rifle of Chuck Connors in "The Rifleman". I guess he and John Wayne found it acceptable as it was.

[greyhawk]

I'm sure I've seen a 'short stroke kit' for those matchlocks .......

I've always thought it odd that there is no 'short stroke kit' offered for the '92, the rifle of Chuck Connors in "The Rifleman". I guess he and John Wayne found it acceptable as it was.

If it was do able there would be one already.....

[greyhawk]

Thank you Greyhawk.   What you described mostly matches what was happening.  Where could I find a new magazine cutoff to buy?  Would shimming work instead of a new part?

Karl  heres what I would do for starters - make yourself two dummy rounds - feed em in then take a piece of brass 1/8th inch welding rod - might want to put a point on it or a flat tip like a screwdriver - open the action to the point the lifter is about to raise - now push the round off the carrier forward into the magazine - you can see the little cutoff thingy move aside to clear the round then pop back across to hold it - push the cutoff aside gently with your lil brass jigger and the round should pop back free onto the carrier and the cutoff stops the next one coming in - play this back and forth as long as it takes to be certain sure that cutoff is working free and easy on every round - you guys run hard so it has got to be right - spend some time doing this and it will either tell you one way or tother - if its not working right fix it - if all is well there ? problem is someplace else  - I dont reckon a 92 is  near as sensitive to OAL of ammo as a toggle link gun.  

Trust me, I shoot my lever actions like I stole them so being too gentle is not part of the problem.

way to go ! but when they jam its worse eh!

My Rossi 92 does not mind wadcutters nearly as much
I never ran wadcutters - but surprised that a 73 hates em worse than a 92 - woulda though that a toggle gun (or a marlin) with a straight feed wopulda had less trouble feeding em BUT I have had mainly winchesters with winchester rounds and that bit of bottle neck helps feeding .  


The firing pin advice is interesting.  I may have found an antique Marlin for my lovely wife's Christmas present.  The price is good and it is in .32 so SASS legal but has about as many broken parts as not.  The firing pin dropped out in two pieces and Numrich is out of them.  I am working with the seller to see it I can have a new one machined since it is a pretty simple part.  The split magazine sleeve might be a little trickier to fix.  
Her goal is to have all originals for her SASS kit.  She has the S&W revolvers already and is looking for a shooter 20 ga damascus or the likes (she just found a surprisingly sweet little 16 ga damascus coach gun for $400.  I am tired of learning to load more old ammo.    This little coach gun is pretty and feels like someone tuned it for SASS a century ago.)  The lengths that I go to to bribe my wife into coming out to shoots.  

worth the effort (bribery!)
I have took a couple pictures looking down into a couple 92's to demonstarte wot I am on about here - 38-40 stopper = this is my 32-20 conversion gun just finished building - 44-40 stopper = this old girl has been rebarrelled - its working - but see how the stopper is not come across as nicely as the other rifle - the front end of the cutoff is just scratching the barrel face - needs pulling down and a couple strokes with a file to fix it sos it can have clearance on the barrel face - have a good look at these two - the 38/40 is right and the 44/40 is functional but only just - third pic is lookin straight down into the innards - if a 92 is poppin rounds out the top of the action (do ya call that stovepiping?) look here  --- the cartridge guides rearward of the grooves that clear the rim  MUST be close enough that a factory case body can not clear - so a 32-20 has two little pimples opposite each other on the guides just behind the rim grooves and a pair of matching grooves in the bolt underlug - that case is too small to close the rails in - I sold my 357 rossi so I dont know how its handled in that calibre - if the case body can fit between those rails rearward of the rim groove then the lifter will flick the nose up and stick it out the top - this where ya might shim an old gun - just a few thou under the right side cartridge guide (never had to do that - but did have to refurbish a 32/20 one time that a guy had "polished up" - he emeryed those two little pimples off the guide rails - was fun putting them back on with the farm welder) ---- maybe this helps  

[PJ Hardtack]

If it was do able there would be one already.....

"If'n it ain't broke - don't fix it!"

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

Take away the short stroke kits and the 92 is just as fast as any rifle in the game .
And will handle hotter ammo for other things needed too.
Just sayin
Rooster