Billy the Kid's 1873 Winchester

[Dead I]

This fellow is wearing the same clothing as the picture of John Jones. Not similar clothing, but the same duds.  I think Smith had his picture taken first and then switched with Jones.  Note the condition of the collar.

[Dead I]

On the reverse of this picture is written "Smith, J".  Is it Joe Smith?  I see that name from time to time w/t the LCW.  I also see Sam Smith; brothers?

Provenance is that I found both with in the Sallie Chisum collection.  Both this fellow and the one I think is Jones are wearing the same clothing.  Not similar but the very same clothes.  We know that Sallie knew the men in the LCW and she must have known John Jones.  I think therefore, that my picture of Jones is he.  The known picture has been heavily retouched and the hat has been added.  I'd put my money on him being Jones.

[River City John]

Just for fun, here is a picture of John Jones.  It's unknown. On the reverse is written, "John J."  I've matched to another picture of Jones that is well known.  I've posted that one too. I think they are reversed one to the other since mine is still "as in tintype and therefore a mirror image. I think the other has been fllip flopped. You can match them right down to the little pencil thin beard and light goatee.  Look closely, you can see it. IMO they are the same fellow.





[/quot]
Look at their ears and their location relative to their eyes. Also shape and size of the ears.
Don't look the same to me.

Shape of ears is different, shape of nostrils are different, shape of lower lip different. Also the fullness of the lower eyelids in the upper image is missing in the lower image

RCJ

[Dead I]

Believe as you will River City John.  Of course you have every right to do so.  Some people to whom I show these pictures disagree with them all.  However, everyone who has seen the actual collection agrees with  me that they are authentic.  Since I found these I have been bombarded by disbelievers.  I think many are just being contrary.  However I have found some pictures that I thought was one person and then over time I've changed my mind.  As an example here is a picture that I thought, or really  hoped was Jesse Evans.  It is not.  It is J.J. Dolan.    

[Fox Creek Kid]

The ONLY photo with good probability, aside from the infamous studio photo, of being the Kid is the posse photo taken at Stinking Springs:

http://www.angelfire.com/nm/boybanditking/pageStinkingSprings.html

[MJN77]

The ONLY photo with good probability, aside from the infamous studio photo, of being the Kid is the posse photo taken at Stinking Springs:

http://www.angelfire.com/nm/boybanditking/pageStinkingSprings.html

A lot of people believe this to be a "staged" or reenacted photo. If you look at the close up comparison in your link, the jaw line, brow ridge, ear, and mouth are all different form the known Billy pic. Also, the hat on the "other billy" does not fit the description of the Kid's head wear (sombrero) from Garret's possemen. The "garret" figure doesn't look tall enough. The Kid was five feet eight or nine inches tall, while Pat Garret was six feet four and described as "all legs". Looking at the posted photo, one would think that "pat's" legs would hang down a little farther below the horse's belly than they do considering his and "billy's" horse appear about the same size. I believe the pic Dead I posted of "Billy" in the suit is a good possible Kid photo as it matches up very well with the known photo. The point is, there are dozens and dozens of supposed "kid" photos and most do not even look like each other let alone the known photo. Besides, no one really knows what Billy really looked like. People that knew him said the known pic was a bad likeness of the Kid. Kinda like judging someone's looks from their driver's license photo. It's all speculation.

[Stillwater]

Dead I, what is the first picture supposed to be?

Bill

[Dead I]

Dead I, what is the first picture supposed to be?

Bill

Boy, that post really got screwed up!  I tried to post a tintype of Sallie Chisum that was in her personal collection, but somehow a picture of the breech block of a Hall Rifle got put up.  I'm showing  how a Dragoon would have used the breech as a pistol.

[Dead I]

If I remember correctly the Kid's Win. is in the Texas Ranger Museum in Waco, Texas.

I think that's Olinger's shotgun, but I've never been there and therefore, have not seen it.  Billy loved guns.  He's sit around and hold and finger then.  Just like I do!

[Dead I]

Here is a known and often published picture of Sallie Lucy Chisum.

[Dead I]

Here is a picture of Sallie that she kept within her collection which I found in a little antique store:

[Dead I]

Here you see Sallie in her prime.  She was born in 1858.  I think this picture was taken in 1878 when the Regulators visited the South Spring Ranch and had their tintypes taken.  Some writers say Billy gave Sallie a picture of himself.  Sallie kept that picture for the balance of her life.  I think there's a chance she exchanged pictures with the kid and gave him this very picture.  It's folded just above and below the image.  Did Billy take it, fold it and ride of into the sunset?  Maybe.  Did he return it to Sallie when he heard she was engaged to another man?  He'd likely do that.

[Dead I]

Here is Sallie posed with her first husband, William Robert. 

[Fox Creek Kid]

Dead I, do you have documented provenance on these photos?

[MJN77]

Dead I has said that they were Sally Chisum's personal photos.

[Dead I]

Dead I, do you have documented provenance on these photos?

Documented?  Well, not documented.  I first found the collection of Sallie's photos in a local antique shop.  Then I learned that Sallie had a favorite niece who lived near Baker, Oregon.  I drove out there and spoke with a women who is expert in geneology.  I explained who I was looking for and she told me she knew the family.  She gave me the family's phone number.  I called and spoke with Sallie's niece's (Maiden name Ara Vitella Chisum; Walter and Inez Chisum's daughter. Walter was Sallie's brother.) son.  He invited me out to  his place.  There I discovered the Chisum family who are still ranchers.  They showed me their archive of hundreds of photos.  One of them is the one of the Long House and the elderly photo of Sallie Chisum that I've posted here.  There were many others, including a fantastic picture of Willi and his new wife Lena Tucker taken on their honeymoon at the South Spring Ranch. Here it is:

[Dead I]

The picture of the young couple are Lena and Willi Chisum, (written on reverse) the original owned by Sallie's niece's family who I visited.  They explained to me how the collection that I discovered was sold.  The identities of most the people had been forgotten, but the family recognized some of the pictures.  So the family who are Sallie Chisum's direct relatives not only have their own unknown pictures of the famous Chisum family, but recall mine and know when, why and how they were sold.  I found them in a little antique store nearby.  

Come to find out most of the pictures had been kept secret by Sallie's niece, being of bad men.  They were sold in a yard sale.  They ended up in a little store a mile from my house, where I recognized them and bought them.  No one but me recognized them.

Then I traveled to the  home of the photographer and found several more, some I was able to buy and some I just copied from the his personal album that I discovered.  His name is embossed along the bottom of many of the tintypes, others show his obvious style.    

[Dead I]

Many of the tintypes within Sallie's collection are of her family including inlaws.  Some are of her friends, including Lily Casey and others are of Regulators who Sallie knew.  I have been able to identify some of the pictures because they look like other pictures of them.  Others I have used hints provided by the photos themselves and by descriptions of the person that are a matter of history.  Here is an example.  This I believe is Billy Wilson.  He was slight, and sandy haired.  He sports a new suit and hat. We know that Mike Cosgrove gave one to Picket, Billy, Rudabaugh and Wilson.  Here we see it.  We also know that Wilson was not locked down as were Billy and Dirty Dave after their capture at Stinking Springs.  We also know that Picket was sent off in a change of venue for trial, but Billy, Wilson and Dave were kept back and sent to sante Fe. I believe a photographer was brought in to take "mug" shots of the three desparadoes.  Here is who I strongly believe in Billy Wilson:  

[Dead I]

The picture of Wilson was taken outside and against a photographer's canvas painted backdrop.  I think he is sitting up against the outside wall of the jail in either Sante Fe or Las Vegas.  Probably Las Vegas.  If so it was taken in the morning of 27 December 1880. 

I also have pictures of Billy and Rudabaugh that showes them in new suits.  Now, if this is them, they had just been captured at Stinking Springs and probably looked pretty bad.  We know that Rudabaugh wore a full beard.  In my picture he has been cleaned up. In Utley's book he says Rudabaugh had straight brown hair that turned up at the tips and a square jaw.  Here he is: this pic collected by Sallie.   

[Dead I]

This pic of whom I believe is Rudabaugh is a detail.  One can see his heavy forehead in the pic of his decapitated head and also the "V" shape of his mustache.  That gory picture was taken six years after this one, and frankly having one's head cut off just doesn't bring out the best in one's features. The background here is dull gray...just like the inside of a jail cell.  Also the subject is placed close to the lens as in a narrow cell.  Yep, it's most likely Dirty Dave.  Finally a clear picture of the living bad man.